Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

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Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby llewellen » 2018-06-10 14:17

I think I understand and I agree with the philosophical reasons why some people choose to avoid the use of systemd, although I do not purport to understand fluently the underlying technical and programming issues. Researching the question seems to turn up three main alternatives: sysvinit, openrc and runit, all of which are in the Debian repositories.

For serious, amateur, hobbyist home systems what advice or recommendations do you have?
It is not that I am mad; it's only that my head is different from yours - Diogenes of Sinope
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bw123 » 2018-06-10 14:37

If you've already done enough reading to understand the philosophy of it, then what purpose would this question serve, other than to start another systemd thread to discuss the philosophy of it?

Why not use forum search? There are some really really really long boring threads about it already.

p.s. what the heck is a serious amateur hobbyist?
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby llewellen » 2018-06-10 14:44

bw123 wrote:If you've already done enough reading to understand the philosophy of it, then what purpose would this question serve, other than to start another systemd thread to discuss the philosophy of it?

Why not use forum search? There are some really really really long boring threads about it already.

p.s. what the heck is a serious amateur hobbyist?


Read my last sentence again. I'm not a fan of re-inventing the wheel. I like to listen to people who have been there before. Sometimes I avoid pitfalls that way.

Someone who is not a professional system admin, developer, programmer or otherwise using Linux in a production environment. Would you prefer a different term?
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bw123 » 2018-06-10 14:51

It's not the terms that matter, but how long you've been using linux? The question is in newcomers section, and serious amateur hobbyist to me would mean at least 5 yrs.

I think you should experiment and try them all, it's good to do stuff like that. If you're not good with linux, and debian in particular, you will have a lot of trouble probably. Make a good backup first.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby llewellen » 2018-06-10 15:21

bw123 wrote:It's not the terms that matter, but how long you've been using linux? The question is in newcomers section, and serious amateur hobbyist to me would mean at least 5 yrs.

I think you should experiment and try them all, it's good to do stuff like that. If you're not good with linux, and debian in particular, you will have a lot of trouble probably. Make a good backup first.


Take whatever interpretation you like from what I posted. I have better things to do today.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-10 16:04

I think I've warned you; we already had threads like these. Systemd has been discussed from every possible angle ever since Jessie's release. I've been there, seen it all.
If you do require special reading about systemd, there is a thread buried deep in this forum from a dear member of the community. I'll let you find it, since it doesn't deserve necroing from another troll.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby llewellen » 2018-06-10 16:09

Wheelerof4te wrote:I think I've warned you; we already had threads like these. Systemd has been discussed from every possible angle ever since Jessie's release. I've been there, seen it all.
If you do require special reading about systemd, there is a thread buried deep in this forum from a dear member of the community. I'll let you find it, since it doesn't deserve necroing from another troll.


Please re-read my OP and understand that I am not asking about systemd. I get the point. I don't want it. I was asking for advice, experience, recommendations regarding the alternatives.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-10 16:14

I see you really are a troll. I gave you the thread about the alternatives in the general discussion subforum. If you already saw it, as you've said, then you know everything you need to know.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-06-10 16:30

by llewellen » For serious, amateur, hobbyist home systems what advice or recommendations do you have?

Why let others , or ask others to decide for you ? Do some real research, try some of the alternatives, and decide what is best for your situation.
Philosophical reasons, = BS , philosophy has nothing to do with it.
llewellen>>although I do not purport to understand fluently the underlying technical and programming issues
And that is what counts,
The technical , mechanical, and programming that makes a OS work well for the specific situation.
Nobody decided for me, what OS I use, and I never asked anybody. After looking and trying various options available, OpenBsd is what I use for servers and my home PC, my main OS.
As a "serious amateur hobbyist", FreeDos, Minix3 are fun and interesting use, and also are reliable, I am actually using Minix 3 on 1 server as well.
by llewellen »Take whatever interpretation you like from what I posted. I have better things to do today.

If you really do have better things to do , why did you start this ? I also have better things to do, but just wanted to comment, since this thread/topic is a open invitation for trolls, like me, and the others that have jumped in. The one that asked "why the invasion of trolls lately ", a while back. These kind of threads are why. But any way it is not spam, so there is nothing I can do, so I might as well jump in also, and enjoy the bickering. I expect others to jump in shortly as well. Unless a mod closes the thread, before that happens.
If I was a mod, that is what I would do, ...ok , well that is about it from this troll, I really do have better things to do.
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2018-06-10 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-10 16:44

GarryRicketson wrote: The one that asked "why the invasion of trolls lately ", a while back. These kind of threads are why.

You're right, Garry. I shouldn't answer these in the future, like I once said.
GarryRicketson wrote:Unless a mod closes the thread, before that happens.
If I was a mod, that is what I would do

Sure, that is the only option.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby llewellen » 2018-06-10 17:00

One of the things that is very off-putting, not to say offensive, about some members of some Linux communities is their prickly, arrogant defensiveness. See ya.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-06-10 18:30

llewellen wrote:three main alternatives: sysvinit, openrc and runit

Don't forget about s6!

https://skarnet.org/software/s6/

And suckless' own sinit (although that doesn't do process supervision):

https://core.suckless.org/sinit

Plenty of choice, that's for sure :)
what advice or recommendations do you have?

Stick to systemd with Debian, if you want an alternative then try either Parabola GNU/Linux-Libre or Devuan, both of which offer OpenRC as a boot option.

If you can stand losing glibc then Alpine Linux is a great choice thanks to it's ultra-minimal busybox+OpenRC approach (all based on musl libc).

Although it is possible to use OpenRC with Debian[1], it is very much a hack and many things don't work properly.

Using sysvinit with Debian is just silly (IMO), it is no more simple than systemd and shares many of the conceptual failings of that project:

https://busybox.net/~vda/init_vs_runsv.html

[1] viewtopic.php?f=16&t=134915
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bdtc1 » 2018-06-11 02:18

The original question is valid and reasonable.

I have not seen here a good summary of user's experiences with each of the alternatives to systemd. I suspect that each would work after it is set up correctly, but unfortunately more and more Debian packages seem to require systemd.

I have chosen for now to move to the AntiX system, using sysvinit, which has been around for years, is kept fairly up to date, is based on Debian, uses the Debian package archives and security updates, but which also locks out most of systemd and thus has to provide many systemd-free alternative packages. They are also working on providing eudev and other useful replacements, plus updated kernels for Meltdown/Spectre. The builders of AntiX do have a political bias they like to promote, but that can be ignored easily enough if you wish. AntiX does like to go for lean and simple, is more command-line oriented than other systems, and uses a window manager instead of a full desktop system. (I have enjoyed getting away from KDE, for example.) Look at MX Linux for a related project with a somewhat different goal.

Devuan is making some nice progress. It has more systemd than AntiX, but less than Debian in some important ways. Devuan does not try to share the Debian archives, so you may want to investigate the availability important packages, kernel versions, and security updates.

I that believe each of these distributions offers some choice of init system, but the more useful question is whether replacements for important systemd-infected packages are available.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby golinux » 2018-06-11 04:05

bdtc1 wrote:Devuan is making some nice progress. It has more systemd than AntiX, but less than Debian in some important ways.
Here's an explanation. If AntiX was running a DE instead of a window manager, you'd have those files too.

Devuan does not try to share the Debian archives, so you may want to investigate the availability important packages, kernel versions, and security updates.
Completely wrong! 98% (guesstimate) of Devuan is pure Debian. But we don't access Debian directly. amprolla blacklists the offending systemd packages and the "clean" Debian pkgs are pulled in by a redirect to the Debian repos.

I that believe each of these distributions offers some choice of init system, but the more useful question is whether replacements for important systemd-infected packages are available.
ASCII offers a choice of sysvinit or openrc at installation. There are other init systems available and being used. If an important package has a hard systemd dependency, Devuan removes it and rebuilds the package.

Note: Bruce Perens on Slashdot today:
I was the second Debian project leader. These days, I prefer to run Devuan, a true Debian derivative engineered the way I would probably have decided to make it. It's efficient and trouble-free. Thanks to the Devuan developers for all of the work!
That about says it all.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby debiman » 2018-06-11 05:11

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?defa ... ot+systemd
what more is there to say?

but of course this thread will take the path of all similar and/or identical threads of this kind...
popcorn time!
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