Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby anticapitalista » 2018-06-12 16:13

golinux wrote:
bdtc1 wrote:Devuan is making some nice progress. It has more systemd than AntiX, but less than Debian in some important ways.
Here's an explanation. If AntiX was running a DE instead of a window manager, you'd have those files too.


This is not true. Users can install Xfce, mate and cinnamon systemd-free desktops on antiX
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby golinux » 2018-06-12 23:14

anticapitalista wrote:
golinux wrote:
bdtc1 wrote:Devuan is making some nice progress. It has more systemd than AntiX, but less than Debian in some important ways.
Here's an explanation. If AntiX was running a DE instead of a window manager, you'd have those files too.

This is not true. Users can install Xfce, mate and cinnamon systemd-free desktops on antiX
Is there any documentation how you remove libsystemd0 without having to fork those packages that have a dependency on it? Would be interesting reading . . .
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby anticapitalista » 2018-06-13 12:10

golinux wrote:Is there any documentation how you remove libsystemd0 without having to fork those packages that have a dependency on it? Would be interesting reading . . .


Thee is no documentation, and we have to fork some of the desktop-environment to remove libsystemd0 dependency. eg for MATE
http://repo.antixlinux.com/stretch/pool/nosystemd/m/
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby golinux » 2018-06-13 15:50

anticapitalista wrote:
golinux wrote:Is there any documentation how you remove libsystemd0 without having to fork those packages that have a dependency on it? Would be interesting reading . . .
There is no documentation, and we have to fork some of the desktop-environment to remove libsystemd0 dependency. eg for MATE
http://repo.antixlinux.com/stretch/pool/nosystemd/m/
Thanks. Yes, forking and rebuilding is the only solution. My error for limiting this discussion to DE. How does AntiX cope with the volume of packages tied to libsystemd? Devuan has enough of a challenge to fork essential packages that are banned for hard systemd dependencies! Hats off if you manage to cleanse all those 100s of packages!
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby HuangLao » 2018-06-13 17:57

This looks like a good time to recommend a possible merger, more of a united front....antiX and Devuan, sharing repos, sources etc....
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bdtc1 » 2018-06-14 03:05

anticapitalista wrote:to remove libsystemd0 dependency.


Do you have a general sense for how many of those packages used systemd for a reasonable purpose, v.s. just because it's there?

How hard would it have been to have Debian be init agnostic, especially since a small team is able to undo so many of the dependencies?
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby golinux » 2018-06-14 03:17

bdtc1 wrote:
anticapitalista wrote:to remove libsystemd0 dependency.


Do you have a general sense for how many of those packages used systemd for a reasonable purpose, v.s. just because it's there?

How hard would it have been to have Debian be init agnostic, especially since a small team is able to undo so many of the dependencies?

Have you not seen this thread?

(I never get tired of posting or reading that)
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bdtc1 » 2018-06-14 07:15

Yes, but here are two teams who have personally gone through a number of packages and removed systemd dependencies. I was wondering just how hard that was, and what sense each of you has about just how necessary these dependencies were in the first place.

In other words, it's no longer just a theoretical argument. How is the reality?
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby steve_v » 2018-06-14 07:49

I really just dropped in to say:
llewellen wrote:One of the things that is very off-putting, not to say offensive, about some members of some Linux communities is their prickly, arrogant defensiveness.

This^.
I grok the need to maintain SNR, but what I see here is not that. It's established forum members acting like prigs in response to a fair question, and that's depressing.

Wheelerof4te wrote:warned you...
troll...
you really are a troll...

The only trolls in this thread are you and Gary, and he has the good grace to admit it. :evil:

Thankfully there are still adults to be found on FDN, as the constructive discussion later in the thread illustrates. Shame the OP was chased off by the local systemd fanboys first.
This hyper-defensive bullshit from a select few, every time anyone mentions the s-word, it's one of the reasons I'm not around much these days.


bdtc1 wrote:How hard would it have been to have Debian be init agnostic
If you don't care about a full-featured GNOME desktop, not particularly difficult. It's just a matter of manpower, rebuilding all those packages needlessly linked against systemd and packaging replacements for it's session-management functionality.
Then just drop in your init system of choice. All the other viable non-systemd implementations are readily interchangeable, because they are just init systems.

Devuan did it, Debian could too. I don't have the knowledge or the inclination for in-depth speculation on the reasons for Debian being so entangled with systemd, but I suspect supporting GNOME as a default desktop was a major factor.

golinux wrote:I never get tired of posting or reading that
Dasein's posts are always good reading, and that one should be mandatory for anyone curious about the systemd situation.

FWIW, I recently migrated my last "true" Debian machine to Devuan ASCII. It's at least as nice as Stretch, and that's quite nice.
Now that Devuan isn't miles behind Debian release-wise, it's an excellent choice for those wanting the best of both. :P

bdtc1 wrote:How is the reality?
From a user-perspective, very real and very usable. I haven't encountered any missing functionality in ASCII at all.
I run Gentoo (openrc) on my desktop, and I don't see anything missing there either. IMO, openrc is far nicer to work with than either sysv or systemd.
The rest is above my pay-grade. Not because I couldn't learn to do it (I did rebuild some stuff while waiting for ASCII), but because I have insufficient time and love of Debian to do so.
If Debian must remain wedded to systemd, I'll just run something else. I'm lazy like that.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-14 10:28

steve_v wrote:The only trolls in this thread are you and Gary, and he has the good grace to admit it.


OP wanted to ask question related to the alternatives to systemd in another thread, to which I replied with an already existing one that addresses his question (and provides OS examples). Add to that thread other 100 opened threads about the "s-word", and one has a wealth of info. In spite of this, OP started to act defensive instead of going through those threads and asking a meaningful, specific question.

I don't have to be spam hunter to notice an obvious troll thread. The fact that Devuan users used this thread to propose a merger between antix/MX to better "combat" s-word doesn't mean an OP wasn't a troll.
Have your merger, I don't mind. But remember that this is forum for Debian, where we talk about Debian. Everything else has to go to Offtopic section.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby bw123 » 2018-06-14 10:51

There's no need to argue, we should cooperate. The thread has gone off topic. I had an idea it would turn into a commercial for other distros, like all the others have. It's a debian forum, so it might be good for someone to sum up the available options on debian, and make the point that changing init system will not address philisophical avoidance of systemd. From what I understand, systemd can't really be removed from debian completely without quite a bit of hacking, which is not going to be easy for a newcomer.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby steve_v » 2018-06-14 11:07

Wheelerof4te wrote:OP wanted to ask question related to the alternatives to systemd in another thread, to which I replied with an already existing one that addresses his question (and provides OS examples).
A thread directing people to run another distro, which does not answer the question at all, and certainly does belong in off-topic.

Wheelerof4te wrote:remember that this is forum for Debian, where we talk about Debian.

Lets recap the relevant part of the original post, that which is asking for advice, with emphasis:
llewellen wrote:Researching the question seems to turn up three main alternatives: sysvinit, openrc and runit, all of which are in the Debian repositories...
what advice or recommendations do you have?

And later:
llewellen wrote:I am not asking about systemd. I get the point. I don't want it. I was asking for advice, experience, recommendations regarding the alternatives.

Looks very much like "talking about Debian" to me. Looks exactly like someone asking for advice on how to run a non-systemd init on Debian. I'm not seeing any anti-systemd trolling here.

If discussion of running Debian with something other than systemd as init are somehow not about Debian, perhaps your time might be better spent questioning the inclusion of such software in the repos to begin with?


bw123 wrote:I had an idea it would turn into a commercial for other distros, like all the others have.
We have enough of those, and it's not answering the question as posed either.
bw123 wrote:It's a debian forum, so it might be good for someone to sum up the available options on debian
Yay, on topic again :D

bw123 wrote:From what I understand, systemd can't really be removed from debian completely without quite a bit of hacking, which is not going to be easy for a newcomer.
True, but that's no reason to accuse the OP of trolling or tell them to run another distro.

So, to return to the now abandoned question (which I would also be interested in) does anyone have any experience or advice to share on running Debian with one of the mentioned "alternative" init systems?
If we need a more specific question: How about running Debian with openrc? It is in the repos after all.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-14 11:29

steve_v wrote:Looks very much like "talking about Debian" to me. Looks exactly like someone asking for advice on how to run a non-systemd init on Debian. I'm not seeing any anti-systemd trolling here.


Do we really have to count how many threads started like "Hey, I wanna use Debian, but without systemd. I see sysvinit, openrc, etc. in the repos. What are your experiences with them?" and how many of those ended up being troll threads?! I would say all of them.

I have said once that with the availabilty of distros such as Devuan, antiX and MX Linux, ex-Debian users have gained suitable alternatives. Debian has chosen systemd. You may use it without systemd and there are guides, howtos to do it. BUT, as time goes on, more and more packages will require systemd in one way or the other, just as it was predicted on this very forum. GNOME, which is too big, too popular to be excuded from Debian, has a hard dependency on systemd. As such, many GTK3 programs depend on systemd.
OP has to know that sytemd's reach is inevitable and absolute at one point in Debian's future. There is no point, not one meaningful point for him to cling to Debian if he doesn't want to use systemd. Yet he asks to use it nevertheless.

EDIT:
If we need a more specific question: How about running Debian with openrc? It is in the repos after all.

Why don't you install it and try it for yourself? Then tell us how did it go.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby steve_v » 2018-06-14 11:56

Wheelerof4te wrote:how many of those ended up being troll threads?
Other threads that are not this thread, but you do appear determined to make it so.

Wheelerof4te wrote:You may use it without systemd and there are guides, howtos to do it.
Had you linked one of those instead of accusing the OP of trolling, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Wheelerof4te wrote:OP has to know that sytemd's reach is inevitable and absolute at one point in Debian's future. There is no point, not one meaningful point for him to cling to Debian if he doesn't want to use systemd. Yet he asks to use it nevertheless.
People are free to do as they wish, if you have no advice on running Debian without systemd, why even comment? You could have simply said "It's not worth the hassle".

Wheelerof4te wrote:Why don't you install it and try it for yourself? Then tell us how did it go.
Poorly, as of last time I tried (Jessie). Perhaps someone has some advice on how to get it running properly?
Perhaps they might even try to answer the OPs question, rather than just trash talking them and derailing the thread into yet another advertisement for other distros.
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Re: Systemd Alternatives - Newcomer Questions

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-06-14 12:05

steve_v wrote:Had you linked one of those instead of accusing the OP of trolling, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Well, excuse me for refusing to be OP's search engine. A simple "Debian without systemd" gives me 1.830.000 hits on Google, including this one: click
steve_v wrote:why even comment? You could have simply said "It's not worth the hassle".

I agree, it's not worth the hassle of feeding this troll thread anymore.
steve_v wrote:Poorly, as of last time I tried (Jessie). Perhaps someone has some advice on how to get it running properly?

I can be your search engine, but just this once, ok?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=134915
https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRC
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