Installing Ubuntu packages on Debian

[AdrianTM]

Description: convert and install rpm and other packages
Alien allows you to convert LSB, Red Hat, Stampede and Slackware Packages into Debian packages, which can be installed with
dpkg.

So you see, Debian devs put such a package in the repos, they didn't consider that Debian users need nannies, but what the hell if they do I will recommend refracta and Absent Minded, they would be great nannies.

[nadir]

Have you guys ever installed RPMs with alien for example? RPMs are clearly not designed for Debian, even more they are not even designed for Debian derived distro, yet, Debian has a tool that converts then in Debs and you can install them. Sure, some might not work, mabye many don't work, but still I don't see people so up in arms about RPMs.

Issyer did mention it, and there was quite a bit of a "discussion" about it. So i wouldn't say this is the usual Ubuntu reluctance, but a tendency to stick to the repos and proven methods.
Might well be your method does work. I got all the apps i need, so i can't test it.

I think we should request the forum-team to allow abusive language for this thread. It already is great entertainment, but i think it might be enhanced by that.

I will post again at page 8.

[refracta]

I made a clear point: you install a package, doesn't work you can remove it.

oh yea....the issue really was that simple....damn us for overcomplicating it since we all know that the vast majority of packages do not have any dependencies or version requirements or overwrite files that are contained in other packages or starts/stops services or or or or or....

gotta give props though....nice runaround....maybe some of the best I have ever seen...


you forgot part of aliens description too

Despite the large version number, alien is still (and will probably always be) rather experimental software. It has been used by many people for many years, but there are still many bugs and limitations.

Alien should not be used to replace important system packages, like sysvinit, shared libraries, or other things that are essential for the functioning of your system. Many of these packages are set up differently by Debian and Red Hat, and packages from the different distributions cannot be used interchangably. In general, if you can't uninstall the package without breaking your system, don't try to replace it with an alien version.

[refracta]

I will post again at page 8.

great entertainment indeed....see if Adrian can bait us into 8 pages...

[Absent Minded]

Again, you are taking it out of context. Someone who is new enough to have to ask "Is it okay to install Ubuntu debs on Debian?" is certianly not experianced enough to deal with the (possible) ramifications of actually doing it. Alien is a tool for advanced users to try and force something to work not designed for Debian (when the source code is not availible).

As you know (or should by now) even source code needs to be "Debianized" before using it to build a Debian package.

[Telemachus]

Many of the people seeking help here are running servers.

That's a red herring, the person who started the thread already said he uses a laptop and wants a music program, that doesn't sound like a server to me. While I run Sid I would not recommend people who run servers to run Sid or Sid packages. But if people who run servers take what I said out of context, then I won't be too sorry for whatever happens to their servers.

Anytime someone asks about Ubuntu compatibility, I reply with the link I posted here from Shuttleworth. To me, that settles the issue. I just don't see this as very complicated. They aren't binary compatible.

I made a clear point: you install a package, doesn't work you can remove it. Nobody seems to argue with good arguments that's not the case.

I think you underestimate the complexity of some installations. In many cases, installing one package will affect countless others. In other cases, installing one item will pull in many, many dependencies. If you add Ubuntu repos and go to install one item, you may end up with 15, 20, etc. Installations are not nearly so cut and dry as you seem to think.

And actually, even if something breaks, so what? It's a chance to learn something new.

Not how I give advice. Again, you clearly have a different view of things.

Have you guys ever installed RPMs with alien for example?

No. Partly for these reasons, partly because, Red Hat, blech. On a Debian system, I install debs or from source. I know how those two work, and I know what to do in those cases. Again, I generally take a low-risk approach if at all possible. You feel differently. That's fine. But I can't see giving that as advice to others. That's really my sole issue with your approach here. You seem to be saying, "It will often work. Go for it. It won't break. Well, maybe it will. But hey, it's not a server. If it is a server, why are you asking some random guy on the internet. Anyhow, it's a chance to learn something new." Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to me.

It matters to me that I not screw people up, so I don't recommend maybes, if I can possibly avoid it. I don't understand people who just - you know - say random stuff.

[AdrianTM]

Someone who is new enough to have to ask "Is it okay to install Ubuntu debs on Debian?" is certianly not experianced enough to deal with the (possible) ramifications of actually doing it.

Here I agree with you, at least partially, I follow this thumb rule, if you have to ask you probably shouldn't do it. But again, I was not responding to a question "can I install Ubuntu packages" but to an oversimplification from the other side:

Re: Installing Ubuntu packages on Debian

That is most assuredly a bad idea.

[AdrianTM]

I don't understand people who just - you know - say random stuff.

Since you and some few other on this forum seem to be only rational people that can disagree with you without being disagreeable this is a bit hurtful, I didn't feel like I said any random stuff. I've been pulled in different direction by different parallel discussions that didn't have much to do with the subject, but it had nothing random about it.

In any case I said what I have to say, I don't think it's a big problem to install package from other distros, I think the fear is perpetuated by people who lack skills or common sense (who'd install stuff like upstart). Many people said it's a bad idea, I don't have much to say about the subject.

[refracta]

....but to an oversimplification from the other side

lawd yes....that evil other side that is the cause of all misunderstanding and oversimplification....saying stuff like apt when they mean dpkg and not specifying what type of package they are talking about even though it is relevant to their argument

do you take anything for that paranoia of the other side.....those poor mentally deranged haters....

you are a character and a half.....thats a compliment btw

So give us examples of these packages from other distros that aren't a big deal to install...

I dont think we perpetuate fear at all....but keep using those big words along with sensational words as it makes such a dramatic impression.

[milomak]

i see this thread has moved on a fair bit:

But I have to agree with AdrianTM. I have on numerous occasions installed ubuntu specific packages on my sid/testing system. and maybe that's the key thing here - on a stable system it should be a no no. testing/unstable maybe to yes.

but as Adrian states, APT (in my case aptitude) does a good job of checking to see if everything will work nicely.

some packages do not. removed from sources.list. some do. install and then hash in sources.list.

i caveat what i do with - if my system breaks, i am more than willing to reinstall. but that doesn't take away from the fact that even ubuntu repos in your sources.list file will not necessarily kill your system (i can't vouch for systems that are not sid/testing).

Sorry if this topic was catered purely towards stable; thus making my points invalid.

[refracta]

on a system you want to be sure is a usable system then it is a no no....

if you dont care then by all means....grab a deb from ubuntu, add some ubuntu sources, dpkg them debs in and when they complain just use dpkg-repack to recreate them, edit the control file to not care about version numbers, rebuild the package and cleanly install it and then apt-get -f install to clean up dependencies....and you are good to go.... but even if it does work (and sometimes it does) it is a big frakin mess that gained you nothing in the long run since sooner or later it will cause problems and all you had to do was backport or build your own package to have a much safer alternative....

[refracta]

then again if we all run around the forum suggesting people install debs from wherever and it breaks their system then they will complain that debian isn't any more stable than ubuntu.....but at least we can scare some of them off....maybe I like that idea afterall....

[milomak]

then again if we all run around the forum suggesting people install debs from wherever and it breaks their system then they will complain that debian isn't any more stable than ubuntu.....but at least we can scare some of them off....maybe I like that idea afterall....

if you read my post(s), i clearly state the parameters against which i installed ubuntu packages. one being that if you want to run stable then it's a no-no.

so don't get your knickers in a knot

edit - refractra maybe you cannot read. in my post there is this piece

Code: Select all

and maybe that's the key thing here - on a stable system it should be a no no. testing/unstable maybe to yes.

[refracta]

maybe you cant read but even if someone runs a testing/sid system some people actually expect it to work the vast majority of the time and to be able to use it to get stuff done.....so I said...

on a system you want to be sure is a usable system then it is a no no....

dont talk about my manties or I will have to tell you about my new and improved GI-joe butt

My point was - why bother installing a ubuntu package when there are saner alternatives.

And my question would be - why have you on numerous occasions installed ubuntu packages on your debian install? And then you disable the repo in your sources.list? That is just double dumb....

Ubuntu repos in your sources may not kill your system and cancer may not kill you.....but neither is healthy either

[smallchange]

Someone who is new enough to have to ask "Is it okay to install Ubuntu debs on Debian?" is certianly not experianced enough to deal with the (possible) ramifications of actually doing it.

Here I agree with you, at least partially, I follow this thumb rule, if you have to ask you probably shouldn't do it. But again, I was not responding to a question "can I install Ubuntu packages" but to an oversimplification from the other side:

Re: Installing Ubuntu packages on Debian

That is most assuredly a bad idea.

This will probably spoil AdrianTM's day, but I agree with him. Despite the many valid points that have been made about the possible difficulties it is possible to make good use of the occasional Ubuntu .deb with out screwing your system. To respond that replacing libc with an ubuntu version will hose your system is not exactly germane to that statement and to oversimplify as above is not real helpful to anyone.

[Issyer]

Have you guys ever installed RPMs with alien for example?

No. Partly for these reasons, partly because, Red Hat, blech.

I installed a lot. And to the great surprise it works. But back to the topic. Ubuntu package is OK, if you install it with dpkg --force-depends and don't --force-overwrite. What may the issue be? Someone loves Debian to such an extent that doesn't know how to run it?

[refracta]

why bother installing a ubuntu package when there are saner alternatives?

[Telemachus]

I don't understand people who just - you know - say random stuff.

Since you and some few other on this forum seem to be only rational people that can disagree with you without being disagreeable this is a bit hurtful, I didn't feel like I said any random stuff. I've been pulled in different direction by different parallel discussions that didn't have much to do with the subject, but it had nothing random about it.

In any case I said what I have to say, I don't think it's a big problem to install package from other distros, I think the fear is perpetuated by people who lack skills or common sense (who'd install stuff like upstart). Many people said it's a bad idea, I don't have much to say about the subject.

That came across more harshly than I meant it then. I apologize for that. It was not meant personally. I disagree strongly with your view, but I have no personal animus towards you. I try pretty hard to distinguish the view and the person.

What I meant by "say random stuff" was give advice to people without near certainty that no harm can come of it. It's a big deal to me, and I may overstress it, but (as a completely different example) I go ballistic when I see people here (and elsewhere) recommend lines of code that they clearly have not taken two seconds to test themselves first. My first rule of thumb: if you don't know (to a reasonable degree of certainty, with all normal caveats included) what will happen, don't recommend it. Given my understanding of binary compatibility, I can't recommend Ubuntu packages simply because they are - by declaration of Ubuntu's BDFL - not binary compatible with Debian. In my view, that means right away that it would always be better to start somewhere else.

I see that you and others here disagree, and you have anecdotal evidence to suggest it's worked well for you so far. I admit that I am being hyper-careful.

[julian67]

I saw an article recently about Ubuntu development and about 70% of packages in Ubuntu are essentially unchanged from their upstream Debian originals so they will mostly work (but good luck with dependency resolution and dist-upgrades). But what is the point? The packages are already in Debian, and have been through or are going through a longer testing period. The other 30% are of course either modified or don't exist in Debian. If you use these you are in with an excellent chance of rendering your OS unstable/broken/not upgradeable. If you use core libs from a different Debian release i.e. mix stable and testing, you can get into difficulties, what to speak of important components from a different distribution.

3rd party packages which are built to work on both Debian and Ubuntu are a different matter, people should differentiate between these packages and those built for specific distros and releases. It's plain stupidity to recommend installing packages from Ubuntu repos on a Debian system, and to recommend this to beginners or new users is really irresponsible. If someone truly needs some wonderful binary package which is in Ubuntu repos but doesn't exist in Debian then the answer is not to mix distributions but to use Ubuntu.

[Issyer]

I can't recommend Ubuntu packages simply because they are - by declaration of Ubuntu's BDFL - not binary compatible with Debian.

The issue is not in the package. The issue is in its dependencies. Surely it is not compatible with many of the Debian packages but it's not the point. If, for instance, Ubuntu binaries are put into only one package, it doesn't matter compatible this package with Debian or not because it's independent and cannot screw anything. Developing this idea we can come to the phenomenon that even RPMs can run fine on Debian and they do. There's even the rpm tool right in the Debian repos. You can install pure RPMs and they are OK as far as they meet their dependencies. Thus, stripping all the OS's layers off we come to the bare bone called kernel. Has anyone noticed that OSs are different but kernel is the same for all the Linuxes? So, you can put Ubuntu, Redhat, Debian, PuppyLinux, etc, right into the same directory like /usr and all of them will be fine as far as they don't overwrite each other.