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Is gentoo going to be bigger?

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Guest

#21 Post by Guest »

Chubby wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't see any advangtes that gentoo has that debian doesn't have?
How about SuSE en Mandrake??
I prefer SuSE above Mandrake, but god knows why
Many of the critics of Gentoo are quite critical of Gentoo users who attempt to make the transition from the traditional role of a user to the role of a System Administrator (with varying degrees of success), and of users who are new to UNIX-like systems. Many of these users have difficulty understanding the jargon and reasoning for proper system provisioning, tuning and maintenance. Some of these users may have been dissuaded from pursuing other, more "technical" distributions due to harsh treatment of newbie users by members of the other distributions' user community, but still desired to learn more about the infrastructure of a Linux installation and found a more welcoming environment in Gentoo's extensive, respectful and newbie-friendly user base, well-maintained documentation and forums. However, some of these users are also attracted to Gentoo because they've heard, rightly or wrongly, that Gentoo is the "best" or most "elite" distribution to use.

Some typical criticisms include:

* Dizzying array of USE flags, causing new users to create highly broken systems
* Endless gcc CFLAG tweaking creates systems that are slower than expected
* Lack of understanding of gcc and its options cause hard-to-find issues in new users' systems
* Lack of understanding of Linux Kernel building causes hard-to-find issues in new users' systems
* New users not taking care to read FAQ's, search the Gentoo forums, read the documentation, misusing terminology, etc...

Two of the best examples of criticisms leveled at Gentoo users are the angry satire of newbie Gentoo users Gentoo Is Rice (http://funroll-loops.org/) and the "Root Cause"-seeking Mandrake Expatriate Syndrome

Gentoo is sometimes criticized for poor QA (though this is a possibly unavoidable consequence of focusing on having more "up-to-date" versions of software available), unstable "stable" branches and for having a closed "upper management elite". Much of the difficulties experienced in past years from the "stable" branch has dissipated due to the addition of a separate "unstable" branch, and will most likely continue to improve with time and effort. However, Gentoo, having a "bleeding-edge" repository of software, often relies on "upstream" (i.e. original authors) QA process. This works well for highly-used software (such as Apache), but less so for little-used software. Gentoo is also criticised for its long installation process, sometimes taking days on older hardware. One of the other interesting debates commonly held is the binary versus source packaging, Gentoo using the latter by default. Source packagers claim that binaries are slow, while binary packagers refute that some packages take days to compile; they want the program now. Of course, both have their own advantages and disadvantages. In response to this criticism, Gentoo offers precompiled binaries for various architectures of popular applications including KDE, GNOME, Open Office and Mozilla, and all the packages required to run them. These sets of packages are referred to as the Gentoo Reference Platform (GRP) and are updated with every new release of Gentoo. Finally, the closed "upper management elite" atmosphere has dissipated since Daniel Robbins formed the Not For Profit (NFP) organization known as the Gentoo Foundation.

Most, if not all, of these criticisms are hotly debated between a vocal minority of users of community-based Linux Distributions.

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AdrianTM
Posts: 2499
Joined: 2004-09-19 01:08

#22 Post by AdrianTM »

My 2 cents: try Gentoo. try Debian, use the one that you like.

I did this (I didn't go too far with Gentoo), I use now Debian, some people might prefer Gentoo, no problem.

Same thing with KDE and GNOME, endless discussion are useless, try one, try another and decide for yourself.

Same thing with browsers, how hard is to try Firefox, Opera, Konq? Try them and decide for yourself.

People have diferent needs and preferences, why blame them if they choose something that fits their need/preference.

Quag7
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Joined: 2004-11-28 13:04
Location: Marana, AZ - USA
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#23 Post by Quag7 »

First of all, no matter what happens, I doubt Debian will go anywhere. Gentoo's popularity is interesting, and its user base seems to have motivations that differ from the preconceptions a lot of people have. I'm typing this on a Gentoo desktop while I'm compiling a new kernel on a fresh Debian install on my laptop nearby. I have a development server here running Gentoo as well, and my router/firewall runs Debian!

I'm 50-50 across 4 computers between the two. But as has been said the distributions are somewhat differently purposed, but I have a feeling if you get rid of the faddishness associated with Gentoo, a lot of Debian users would enjoy Gentoo.

I had Gentoo running on this laptop for awhile, but it got way behind in updates, and then I had some problems with portage and got sick of compiling on it, because it's an old, slow laptop. Gnome and X would take a good day and a half to compile on it. I was able to get Gnome and X on it with Sarge in 32 minutes :)

I think what is probably true is we use what we use, or prefer what we prefer, mainly from momentum. You learn your way around something well and you grow used to it, and you stick with it. And man, I'm really used to Gentoo, but I have places (like work) where Debian (Woody) is a better fit, so I've been trying to get equally comfortable with it. But I am still a little lost from time to time with Debian, whereas I know my way around Gentoo like my own backyard.

Having started with Linux initially with Mandrake, my feeling is that Gentoo and Debian are more similar in their general approach to things than different. One simply deals with conservative binaries and the other with source and an optimized compilation environment. I say they are similar in their approach because at the center of each are tools targeted toward making software installation easy. I think this is a major reason most people try either distro. Both have a suite of tools which in my opinion make them rather superior. (Ditto FreeBSD and ports).

One thing that is true; if you are comfortable with either, you can easily get up to speed with the other. Before Gentoo, Debian had a reputation for being complicated to install (though easy to maintain), and it wasn't, not even on the old installer. Likewise Gentoo which is a manual install but not difficult if you can read directions.

I'm really excited to see these Debian forums here and I certainly hope that they grow to reflect a similar spirit as you find on the Gentoo forums.

One last thing - I don't think many Gentoo users who last more than a month use it at all for the supposed "l33tness" factor - I don't (I did try it initially because it had the reputation of being hard and low-level and having used Mandrake for a little while I didn't feel I was learning anything, so on the basis of its difficult reputation I tried it. But frankly, the essence of why most people use Gentoo is portage, which is a tool to make your life easy, just like apt-get is. You start out maybe looking for a challenge and then you realize that you can really be pretty lazy and run Gentoo; it's not hard at all, and for most people a lot is still sort of hidden).

But anyway the ricer thing doesn't really reflect the motivations or mindset of most Gentoo users I know, though I'm sure they're out there. Nor do most Gentoo users really claim that there's a measurable, benchmarkable difference in speed. It's maybe psychological, tweaking USE flags and the like and just feeling like you have leaner resulting binaries. So maybe it's superstition; I don't know. Interestingly, I ran FreeBSD on a much slower system and it actually ran faster than what I thought was a lean, optimized Gentoo install. Never figured out why.

I really think every Debian user who hasn't tried Gentoo should, and the reverse is completely true as well. If you have several computers in your environment which have different roles to play, and perhaps differing amounts of juice, you quickly realize how great a mixed Debian-Gentoo environment can be.

But that's just my opinion.

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peschmae
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#24 Post by peschmae »

Quag7 wrote:...
So maybe it's superstition; I don't know. Interestingly, I ran FreeBSD on a much slower system and it actually ran faster than what I thought was a lean, optimized Gentoo install. Never figured out why.
...
Interesting. I've heard that from lots of users but actually I can not really feel any speed difference between my Debian System an the FreeBSD I've installed on the same computer.
Of course it boots faster, but that's because on my Debian there are lots of additional services to start which I have not (yet) set up on FreeBSD. Same for shutdown, which seems to work somewhat differently and a lot faster.
But apart from that it's really the same - at least no feelable differences.

Nevertheless it's a great new toy :D

Peschmä
-- Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell

silentbob
Posts: 8
Joined: 2004-11-23 16:51

#25 Post by silentbob »

I'm new to the Debian world so I can't comment much on it as a distro, but I have had a lot of experience with Gentoo and use it on my desktop machine. One major plus with Gentoo is the fantastic forum, I haven't found a better community of linux users who are both newbie friendly (we all have to start somewhere!) and yet there are experts who will help solve your problems.

So far I have enjoyed Gentoo, I am just starting out with Debian for a server I want to build and I think it will meet my requirements for a stable machine. I'm very impressed with the time it took me to set-up and get running (compared to the lengthy Gentoo install and compile times). Overall, I'm just pleased that there are lots of choices out there for people to find the most suitable distro for their needs. :lol:

SoulNOTHING
Posts: 12
Joined: 2004-10-09 01:57

#26 Post by SoulNOTHING »

personally i tried gentoo and got gnome up and running but it was in my opinion to much to manage.
ive been through a lot of distros and alway come back to debian

one tool ive just found is apt-build essentialy like emerge im a real novice at it and am still learning it but when used things seem a bit faster i cant say on the stability. personally use what you want to i sorta look at gentoo as like a hot rod to constantly to work on and debian a workstation and gentoo gives a lot of control to the user its actually pretty close to linux from scratch
but im going to be sticking with debian i have two boxes running sarge/sid

also gentoo may have newer hardware but you cant beat the stability
when the soul is nothing the heart is everything

Maurice
Posts: 41
Joined: 2004-10-06 10:51
Location: Arnhem/ The Netherlands

#27 Post by Maurice »

SoulNOTHING wrote:personally i tried gentoo and got gnome up and running but it was in my opinion to much to manage.
ive been through a lot of distros and alway come back to debian

one tool ive just found is apt-build essentialy like emerge im a real novice at it and am still learning it but when used things seem a bit faster i cant say on the stability. personally use what you want to i sorta look at gentoo as like a hot rod to constantly to work on and debian a workstation and gentoo gives a lot of control to the user its actually pretty close to linux from scratch
but im going to be sticking with debian i have two boxes running sarge/sid

also gentoo may have newer hardware but you cant beat the stability
Is suggest you use some capitals, dots etc.
For the rest I agree with you, alltough I have used gentoo for a longer period (and was pleased with it, until I met Debian).
The Gentoo forums are great! The way gentoo is set up is clear, but it is a monster to maintain (IMHO).
The greatest obstacle while discovering the shape of the earth, the oceans and the continents was not ignorence, but the illusion of knowledge.

http://linux-box.nl

Guest

Usage of: To, Too, and Two

#28 Post by Guest »

Hello --

A simple outlay of to:

Go to the party

I was there, too

I saw two friends

out --

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