Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get locked?

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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby spacex » 2015-08-19 22:29

Sarge-in-charge wrote:I don't want to, and won't, call names.

I just want to point out that locking threads in the Offtopic subforum is beyond ridiculous.

If the Mods/Admins don't want offtopic threads, why do not just delete the whole Offtopic subforum?


I agree completely. I see this in some other forums also. It's bad practice. Let the users have the off-topic section as their place to vent, rant or discuss pretty much any topic remotely connected to linux or computers. As long as people are talking in a off-topic section, the mods should keep out of it. Let the users decide for themselves when the topic is finished...
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby spacex » 2015-08-19 22:53

Sarge-in-charge wrote:
GarryRicketson wrote:..or just a few, that have nothing better to do then argue, and try to push "hippie" nonsense. ??

You say we "call names", then you call our speech "hippie nonsense".

Yeah, it makes total sense.

I want my ****** trustworthy Debian back, or ***** ******** ********** *********** ***** ****.


Yeah, I also saw that he called us "idiots" in the locked thread. At least 4 of us "trolls" on his ignore list :roll: But it's very important to stay on topic, and name calling is very bad. ROFL. It's actually quite amusing. But let me put it this way, GarryRicketson is now on my "ignore-list", regardless how funny he is. Because I'm not sure that his main function should be to amuse me.

And to be quite frank. The off-topic section should be a place where you don't have to be as serious and dull as GR himself apparently is.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby dasein » 2015-08-20 00:42

There's always DUF, whose absolutely-no-moderation-ever policies have helped to make it the thriving community it is today.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-20 00:54

Sarge-in-charge wrote:I just want to point out that locking threads in the Offtopic subforum is beyond ridiculous.

If the Mods/Admins don't want offtopic threads, why do not just delete the whole Offtopic subforum?

Content (behaviour of people posting) is irrelevant? A thread that degenerates into a flame war should not be moderated, because it is in the off-topic section? Although locking any thread should be rare, allowing off-topic threads to be free-for-alls is not completely logical.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby spacex » 2015-08-20 00:55

dasein wrote:There's always DUF, whose absolutely-no-moderation-ever policies have helped to make it the thriving community it is today.


I know. I am a member there :)
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-21 07:13

You can never have too many unofficial Debian forums.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2015-08-21 09:43

Talking about Devuan is offtopic, but good enough for this forum's offtopic. More power to you!

But
1. talking about Devuan and then calling all of us, who don't have a problem with systemd, several inappropriate names for which you'd definitely get a court trial in real life as they are insults...
2. blatantly FUDing and trolling about Debian or its users
3. inciting flame wars

No, thanks! Good riddance!

Also: systemd or not has been talked to death. Isn't this against this one forum rule where we are not supposed to double post? Just find the old systemd thread and revive it. Why do we need 100s of threads pertaining to Debian, Devuan, systemd and post-sysvinit butt hurt?
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby spacex » 2015-08-21 11:46

thanatos_incarnate wrote:
Also: systemd or not has been talked to death. Isn't this against this one forum rule where we are not supposed to double post? Just find the old systemd thread and revive it. Why do we need 100s of threads pertaining to Debian, Devuan, systemd and post-sysvinit butt hurt?


We don't. But when the active threads on Systemd or Devuan gets closed, people will start to divert other topics and sections with it also. Continuing the same debate or quarrels in other threads. That's just the nature of things. The sane thing is just to leave the the thread, and let people lash out there, until they are satisfied. That way, you contain the rant or debate in a few threads, instead of pushing it into lots of other threads, by locking the ones where people are talking.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby millpond » 2015-08-21 23:09

spacex wrote:
thanatos_incarnate wrote:
Also: systemd or not has been talked to death. Isn't this against this one forum rule where we are not supposed to double post? Just find the old systemd thread and revive it. Why do we need 100s of threads pertaining to Debian, Devuan, systemd and post-sysvinit butt hurt?


We don't. But when the active threads on Systemd or Devuan gets closed, people will start to divert other topics and sections with it also. Continuing the same debate or quarrels in other threads. That's just the nature of things. The sane thing is just to leave the the thread, and let people lash out there, until they are satisfied. That way, you contain the rant or debate in a few threads, instead of pushing it into lots of other threads, by locking the ones where people are talking.


Indeed by leaving a systemd thread *alone* and letting people share info about alternates and hacks is the simplest way to let its supporters ignore it, and stay out of flamewars.

It is *not* a dead issue.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-22 04:19

it always comes across though as:

systemd sucks from a technical point of view.
It's in Debian as default.
This was allegedly done unfairly, which sucks from a moral point of view.
Therefore Debian is doubly invalidated:
- on technical grounds (since it has systemd as default);
- on moral grounds (since you consider the decision to have been taken unfairly).


If you just talked about it and how you had plans to make sysvinit/upstart/nothing the default for Stretch/Buster or how you planned to build Devuan as a totally acceptable derivative of Debian, no one would mind.

Yet posts are typically accompanied by jibes about Windows (plus screenshots), apocalyptic scenarios, comments about the Borg, Kool-Aid, vendor lock-in and other hyperbole. It comes across that you're trying to convince everyone that there's no value left in the Debian project, which is why I do things like quote Debian's own internal regulations, since the introduction of systemd as default is valid according to these.

There also seems to be a tendency to confuse the issues of systemd in Debian (it is the default for Jessie and will be at present for Stretch - open in the sense that anything is possible but at this stage unlikely) with systemd in Linux (still open).

Just some examples of what I personally see as valid systemd topics:
- keeping systemd out of the kernel (a Linux topic but not a Debian topic);
- building Devuan (a Debian derivative topic);
- making systemd work better in Debian (a Debian topic);
- increasing systemd skills/awareness among Debian users (a Debian topic).
Last edited by somebodyelse on 2015-08-22 08:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-08-22 07:05

I am going to start with, a apology, I should have not started calling any one names, I did not intend to call any specific person a name,and I didn't point that at any particular person, any way I will still apologize, I should have taken more time, to think about how to word what I said, but also,
millpond wrote:Apparently the topic nazis have struck.
Too bad Devuan does not have an active forum.
Any other ideas?
This is hardly about systemd at all - it is discussing ideas on how we want the platform to proceed and be useful to those of us who consider themselves to be power users.
And how to get around certain 'features' we find to be encumbrances.
The fact that some twits find this objectionable is abominable.


This kind of comments kind of get me pretty angry, which is one reason I generally try to stay out of these kind of threads, and it is frustrating because some people just can not be reasoned with. Endless arguments , with a person or persons, that simply argue for the sake of arguing is point less, and I can not come close to understanding why some people enjoy that. But any way, I apologize, I shouldn't have said things the way I did, now I am going to try again, to explain.
--------------------------------------------------
Postby spacex » We don't. But when the active threads on Systemd or Devuan gets closed, people will start to divert other topics and sections with it also. Continuing the same debate or quarrels in other threads. That's just the nature of things.----

No they won't because this forum is moderated, and people that start doing that will get banned, and the posts will get removed. I am not the one that would be doing that,
because I am not a moderator, nor administrator, but I am confident that is what will happen, honestly, if you want a un-moderated forum, there are a few, and I am sure you would be welcome, this forum is moderated, and right or wrong, the moderators have the final say, and can and will close threads, remove posts, etc. as they see fit, One reason I choose this forum , is because it is well moderated, and does not have the "high noise, low signal" that most un-moderated forums have.
There seem to really , only be a very few users that have a problem with the way the forum is managed. Most of the users, come here to ask technical questions, about problems they are having with their Debian system, some use even as old as squeeze, others, Wheezy, and the most seem to be using Jessie. Their is a great bunch of members, users, that spend all most all of their time trying to help the ones that are having trouble with their system, from beginners , to advanced users,...this is what most of the users/members use the forum for, it functions well, because it is well moderated , and administered. No I am not trying to "kiss ass", I know, that is what the
people that like to argue will say, but that is not the case.
myself>I agree, on that, after all,How the "members" of the forum feel , is important, and it is a forum stuff , feed back issue.

I accepted the invitation to help with the spam, after there had been a heavy wave of spam, and when it started, no one was around to stop it,..so any way, my interest, or "job" is simply to try to help keep the spam out, but as a user/member, I also hope to see the forum stay the way it was when I first joined, a place where I can either ask questions, about Debian, and also, help others, find the answers or solutions to their problems, I like the off topic forum as well, it gives us a place where we can ask about other OS's, and discuss things not necessarily just Debian,.. their are still some guidelines, even for the "off topic", and it is moderated, I am glad it is, it does take some extra work on the part of the moderators, and administration, most, of the users/members, I think, probably feel the same, but just like me, I think most really rather not get involved in a thread like this one, that is not what they come here for, there have been no complaints, from most of the members, unfortunately, it is impossible to "please" every body, ...sometimes I am just foolish enough to try, but it is impossible. This thread has been here now for a few days, so far it is only the same 2 or 3 , users, with complaints.
There are a couple of others, that don't like the way thread was closed, ok, well maybe that could have been done in a more graceful manner, perhaps with no explanation at all ?,..or just " this thread is closed,because it is to much trouble" But any way, it is closed, and that is over,.. there still are a few threads in the "off topic" forum, the same arguments , and nonsense continue ( well it is nonsense , in my opinion,) but obviously the users that take part in those threads, don't feel it is nonsense. You should be thankful , those threads still continue,..and ,then finally, this is what made me decide to post,..
Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-21 22:19:
----snip---(the usual systemd rant)----
Just some examples of what I personally see as valid systemd topics:
- keeping systemd out of the kernel (a Linux topic but not a Debian topic);
- building Devuan (a Debian derivative topic);
- making systemd work better in Debian (a Debian topic);
- increasing systemd skills/awareness among Debian users (a Debian topic)


Nobody, has said " No new topics can be made in the off topic forum", nor even
"No systemd related topics can be started", obviously , especially since Jessie usually uses systemd, No one has said,that any of those topics can not be started,..No one is going to promise one or another, won't get removed, or closed, that would be foolish on the part of administration, to promise they won't close or remove a topic. Some common sense, and looking at, and following the guidelines.
This topic/thread really has reached a point, where there is not really any reason to continue, the same 2 or 3 person, have expressed their selves,

Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get locked


No, it is not where all offtopic threads get locked , but yes, just like any other part of the forum, if and when a moderator or administrator decides that a thread/topic needs to be "locked", it will be. The forum is not going to stop being moderated simple because 2 or 3 users do not like a moderated forum. Following a few simple, very clear guidelines will help prevent any topic that gets started, from getting removed, or locked.
Following the guidelines, will prevent the topics that users start, from getting locked , or removed. How hard is that to understand ? But that is not a promise, that topics that become problems, or do not stay within those guidelines, won't get closed.
End of topic, ( I hope), I can not close a topic, but I think this one has reached the point where it should be.
If and when other users/members want to start a new one, they can, but I really don't see the point in keeping this one going, just to make 2 or 3 persons, that delight in endless , pointless arguments happy.
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2015-08-22 07:42, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-22 07:20

GarryRicketson wrote:One reason I choose this forum , is because it is well moderated, and does not have the "high noise, low signal" that most un-moderated forums have.

But still high noise, low signal. :|
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-22 07:55

^A change is as good as a rest.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2015-08-22 10:26

Randicus wrote:
GarryRicketson wrote:One reason I choose this forum , is because it is well moderated, and does not have the "high noise, low signal" that most un-moderated forums have.

But still high noise, low signal. :|

+1

And I don't think moderating will help unless people moderate themselves. Maybe a pop up once a month would help to remind us of forum rules.
Something like:
1. save bandwidth, don't repeat yourselves, search the boards first, bla bla
2. if you need to rant and repeat yourselves, use IRC or whatever
3. we don't need 20 repetitions of "systemd sucks" unless they present new evidence, arguments, etc.
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Re: Is the Offtopic subforum where offtopic threads get lock

Postby spacex » 2015-08-22 12:32

@GarryRicketson

I'm fully aware that moderators can close as they see fit. But my opinion is that it is counterproductive, because the debate is only going to be moved into a new thread, or another thread is going to be highjacked. In those cases, it's highly unfair to the OP that a thread gets closed because some other people don't behave in his/hers thread.

Also, banning "trolls" often proves to be counterproductive. Often, one troll then becomes many trolls, as in lot's of sockpuppets, and banning trolls or IP-blocking them are a complete waist of time and resources. It only triggers them more, and real trolls won't be stopped by that. In addition, those kind of things also triggers other "dormant" trolls, and also, regular users that are obsessed by something and feels silenced, will also start trolling. As a childish revenge, but non the less, a lot of fuzz is created where there wasn't no need for any fuzz at all.

I've seen mods in many forums trying to fight "trolling", but in every single case, they only make it worse. What works best, is to disregard the trolls. Don't trigger them, and don't feed them. It's no fun trolling if it causes no reaction, and if taking action against them, it's best to just silently delete their post. Not closing threads and taking the last say. Because trolls wont have any of that, and you know it. They see it as you are challenging them to a little game-play.

Just my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. You disagree, and you have the power. That's fine, but my opinion is still the same. I'm 100% sure that this would become a better forum if the regular sections had strict moderating, while people was giving a bit of slack in the off-topic section. As it is now, the off-topic section should be renamed to the "non-debian section", while a new off-topic section should be added, and with the policy of "pretty much anything goes".
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