Quality of Forum Threads

Have something to say about forums.debian.net itself?

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby spacex » 2016-01-23 00:41

arochester wrote:
A computer isn't just a tool for tasks, just as a car isn't just a mean of transportation. It's much much more than just that.


But for some people it is.

I am reminded of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." The central figure is not adversed to using a piece of a tin can to make a shim for his motorcycle. Another figure, when his motorcycle breaks down, will just take send it to a garage. The first could be referred to as a motorcycle geek and the second as a non-geek.

Some people are interested in computers/computing. Computer geeks for want of a better expression. It may be appropriate to provide then with"tools". Others just want to use their computer for tasks. Non-geeks. They don't want "tools", they don't want to read about things that may not be relevant - they just want answers.

Should we say to people that Debian/Linux is for geeks only and simple users should just go away?


OK, but then we agree. The difficult thing is of course to balance the needs of both groups, in one and the same distro. Some act like only the needs of one of the groups are valid, and that's my problem. I have no problem advising the average user to stick with stable, but when the most conservative people in this community do that, they go completely overboard. Describing Testing/Unstable as a disaster area which should be avoided at all cost. We both know that this is not true. What's even worse, is that by providing that impression, they are actually making it even more appealing to the people we do not want to be using Testing/unstable.

It would be a much better approach just to simply explain what the difference between the branches are, and the purpose of each branch, and leave it at that. But that isn't what some people are doing in here, it's more like some kind of failed scare tactics. That doesn't work. It just makes Testing/Unstable all that more "cool".

Instead explain that it isn't cooler. It looks and is just the same, with a increased number of bugs, and a slightly increased risk of breakage. Some things may have improved, others may have regressed. But for all practical purposes, it's impossible to tell if you are running Stable or Unstable just by looking at it. Yes, you have newer versions of software, but in most cases this can only be noticed by the version number, not by the software itself. Testing/Unstable is useful for any kind of devs that need look ahead of the current release, or anyone that feels qualified to test for Debian, but not for normal users. There is no scenario where a normal user should ever have the need to upgrade to Testing/Unstable, as most things can be backported. Which is a much better way to do it.

But just because Unstable isn't cooler or better, and there isn't any other good reason to use it, it doesn't mean that people should be told not to use it. It's nnot anyones business what other people use. Want to support them, fine. Don't want to, then that's fine too. But spare us for the lections. They do not work. It only makes people more curious about Testing/Unstable. Surely you all must have realized this by now?

This infamous disclaimer is actually what got me into CrunchBang:
CrunchBang Linux is not recommended for anyone needing a stable system or anyone who is not comfortable running into occasional, even frequent breakage. CrunchBang Linux could possibly make your computer go CRUNCH! BANG! Therefore CrunchBang Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law.


So you see, that disclaimer made me itch to try it. It should tell anyone something. That doesn't scare anyone of. It's actually great advertizing :)
spacex
 
Posts: 633
Joined: 2015-01-17 01:27

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby cgmcgm » 2016-01-30 09:39

Reading most of this thread made me really sad.

If you have knowledge to share and enough time to spend on a helping forum just share it, as much as shocking it could appear to some of you I don't always understand what I read in the wiki for example, and google does not always gives the right answer either and you know that. I mean what do you expect, people coming from windows to suddenly understand the whole logic of how things work with linux in a glance?
It is my second year with linux and I am totally lost in so many areas, and if it weren't for the help I got from some people I would have probably dropped it. But I am happy I hadn't, because we all know what Microsoft and Apple are doing in the market is just wrong. They are the bad guys, not the noobs, ffs.

I honestly think Linux should be taught at school, so that everybody could learn it from young age, but we all know this isn't possible so please, do help people willing to learn if you can, if you have the time to reply "google it" you also have the time to give the answer.
System: Host: debian Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: MATE 1.8.1 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 8
Machine: Mobo: Acer model: Aspire VN7-571G v: V1.14 Bios: Insyde v: V1.14 date: 01/08/2015
cgmcgm
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-01-28 01:05

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2016-01-30 13:57

cgmcgm wrote:I don't always understand what I read in the wiki for example, and google does not always gives the right answer either and you know that.

This is a perfectly legitimate occasion to start a thread and I've rarely seen people being bashed because they didn't understand a cryptic manpage after reading it. It's not even about that in this topic, it's actually about people who don't even make the effort to do research.

cgmcgm wrote:I mean what do you expect, people coming from windows to suddenly understand the whole logic of how things work with linux in a glance?

If they can read (and they all can if they're here), then I can and do expect them to follow the forum guidelines and customs of the community for lack of a better word.

cgmcgm wrote:It is my second year with linux and I am totally lost in so many areas, and if it weren't for the help I got from some people I would have probably dropped it. But I am happy I hadn't, because we all know what Microsoft and Apple are doing in the market is just wrong. They are the bad guys, not the noobs, ffs.

No one said the noobs are bad. This thread is about (or at least I intended it to be about) behaviour and habits of certain novice users.

cgmcgm wrote:I honestly think Linux should be taught at school, so that everybody could learn it from young age, but we all know this isn't possible so please, do help people willing to learn if you can, if you have the time to reply "google it" you also have the time to give the answer.

If I say "google it", I'm possibly preventing them from asking similar questions again before googling themselves. If that works in 1 of 10 cases, we're already a bit better off. This saves more of mine and their time than answering every minute question of theirs in the forums.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are doing this because they are evil or intentionally lazy. It's a service mentality instilled in many of us by companies which see operating systems as products or services.
User avatar
thanatos_incarnate
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 2012-11-04 20:36

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby dasein » 2016-01-30 17:26

cgmcgm wrote:I don't always understand what I read in the wiki for example, and google does not always gives the right answer either and you know that. I mean what do you expect, people coming from windows to suddenly understand the whole logic of how things work with linux in a glance?

Straw man, pure and simple.

Learning Linux, like learning tap-dancing or anything else, requires a certain level of engagement and effort. If someone consults the Wiki and is unclear on certain points, no one here is going to complain if s/he posts a question asking for clarification. But when someone shows up asking to have Yet Another Tutorial on some aspect of Linux written-from-scratch just for them, or to be spoonfed rather than having to do some (*gasp*) research :shock:, then that's a fundamentally different thing.

It takes exactly the same amount of time and effort to read an existing answer as it does to read a custom-written answer, and the two answers are going to be more or less identical. So asking a stranger to spend an hour to help solve a problem that could be solved with 10 minutes' of self-directed effort is nonsensical. And rude. And self-important. And entitled. And, and, and...

No one expects a newbie to understand Linux from birth. But newbs who aren't willing or able to accept that there is indeed a "learning curve" (emphasis on learning) are not going to be successful Linux users.
User avatar
dasein
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby cgmcgm » 2016-01-30 21:50

dasein wrote:It takes exactly the same amount of time and effort to read an existing answer as it does to read a custom-written answer, and the two answers are going to be more or less identical. So asking a stranger to spend an hour to help solve a problem that could be solved with 10 minutes' of self-directed effort is nonsensical. And rude. And self-important. And entitled. And, and, and...


I don't know about that, in example I'm currently struggling with my wifi connection which keeps dropping and I've been browsing and trying various fixes found on the already countless existing threads on the net about this apparently very common issue with some even redirecting to this very forum, editing my NM conf file time and again for the last FOUR HOURS but still haven't figured it out, but I guess now if I go and open a thread about it you will think I am a rude self-entitled brat? ...
System: Host: debian Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: MATE 1.8.1 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 8
Machine: Mobo: Acer model: Aspire VN7-571G v: V1.14 Bios: Insyde v: V1.14 date: 01/08/2015
cgmcgm
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-01-28 01:05

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-01-30 22:05

cgmcgm wrote:
dasein wrote:It takes exactly the same amount of time and effort to read an existing answer as it does to read a custom-written answer, and the two answers are going to be more or less identical. So asking a stranger to spend an hour to help solve a problem that could be solved with 10 minutes' of self-directed effort is nonsensical. And rude. And self-important. And entitled. And, and, and...


I don't know about that, in example I'm currently struggling with my wifi connection which keeps dropping and I've been browsing and trying various fixes found on the already countless existing threads on the net about this apparently very common issue with some even redirecting to this very forum, editing my NM conf file time and again for the last FOUR HOURS but still haven't figured it out, but I guess now if I go and open a thread about it you will think I am a rude self-entitled brat? ...

Not at all.
Such a post would call for:
a link to the wiki - which has wifi configuration and troubleshooting info.
a request for lspci output - to id potentially problematic hardware that someone might have tips for.
request for info on what you have tried and what results you had.

Attitude and demeanor go a long way.
You will find people are willing to help you learn how to solve your problems.
Providing custom fixes on demand - less so.
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: 2009-10-05 07:54
Location: enzed

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby dasein » 2016-01-30 22:39

cgmcgm wrote:...I guess now if I go and open a thread about it you will think I am a rude self-entitled brat? ...

I'm going to assume that you have enough native intelligence to grasp the seemingly simple distinction between after and instead of. My apologies if I'm overestimating your abilities. But I am done arguing with someone whose repertoire is limited to repeated "straw men" :roll:
User avatar
dasein
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby cgmcgm » 2016-01-30 23:22

dilberts_left_nut wrote:Not at all.
Such a post would call for:
a link to the wiki - which has wifi configuration and troubleshooting info.
a request for lspci output - to id potentially problematic hardware that someone might have tips for.
request for info on what you have tried and what results you had.

OK thanks, I will most likely go for it then if I'm still stuck in a couple of days or so.

dasein wrote:My apologies if I'm overestimating your abilities.

oh no worries mate, I might have overestimated yours too so let's say we're even and call it a day lol
System: Host: debian Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: MATE 1.8.1 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 8
Machine: Mobo: Acer model: Aspire VN7-571G v: V1.14 Bios: Insyde v: V1.14 date: 01/08/2015
cgmcgm
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-01-28 01:05

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2016-02-07 15:17

cgmcgm wrote:[B]ut I guess now if I go and open a thread about it you will think I am a rude self-entitled brat?

No, I'd just assume you haven't read any of the replies from this very thread we're in, as you'd otherwise realise we all meant people who post questions without having done prior research. If you state that the given answers didn't work for you and you still require help, I don't think that anyone would be angry.
User avatar
thanatos_incarnate
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 2012-11-04 20:36

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby cgmcgm » 2016-02-08 00:03

I did read the whole thread, but I admit I had a reading comprehension issue, I apologize.
System: Host: debian Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: MATE 1.8.1 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 8
Machine: Mobo: Acer model: Aspire VN7-571G v: V1.14 Bios: Insyde v: V1.14 date: 01/08/2015
cgmcgm
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-01-28 01:05

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-04-28 20:50

thanatos_incarnate wrote:Fellow forum users,

I'm noticing a steep decline in the quality of the forum threads here.
While this has produced some great comic relief, the truth is that mostly it's
just annoying to see a thread where someone clearly didn't even bother to
do the slightest bit of research before asking their question. And when it's done,
subjects don't reflect the content -- which in turn is vague or hard to read.
Please, for the sake of keeping a sane and functioning board, heed the following
advice:

1. Read this great advice on how to ask questions the smart way
2. Take a look at this wonderful guide for beginners on this forum.
3. Please, search the net first
-first the forums
-then other websites with your favourite Internet search machine
4. Then ask questions following the advice in 1

Thank you for your time!


This is a old thread, so I just quoted the OP, to refresh some memories
It seems to have reached a point of ridiculousness, these people do not even bother to try to search, and do not even read any of the other posts on the forum, So what is the point in even answering the questions ?
You can take the time to explain for example "How to install Debian along side of windows", How many topics/threads are there on this ?
Search found 1580 matches: +Install +Debian +dual +boot
===================
This is the most recent:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=128147&p=614341#p614340
===========================
And this most recent, blatant refusal to even make a effort to look for the answer to a question, before posting is what made me decide to post here.
There seems to be a rather large "group", that are constantly doing this, asking questions that have been answered 1000s of times. not bothering to do any search, and then they get so offended, crying it hurts their feelings when someone dares to suggest they do a search.
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=128135

Recently I got a PM from someone that quite often helps with solutions, and good answers, Do you know what they wanted ? Well no, it was a PM, and I am not going to say who, or quote it, but I will say they have been a help full forum member for several years. They wanted to know if it was possible to "wipe" their account, remove all of the
instructional, help full posts they had posted over the years. Why ? because they felt there is no reason to have the answers, and topics explaining things, no body reads them, and they were tired of answering the same questions over and over, What is the point in taking the time to write a answer,
maybe also do some searches for the person and even post the links to sites and tutorials where they can find the various solutions and decide which is best for the situation, what is the point, when nobody else will ever even look at the answers,and links, or search results ?
What is the point in taking time to try to figure out the best "keywords" then doing a actual search for these people, when they do not even bother to look at the search results, they expect us to not only do the search, but browse the results, and they will not even bother to follow the links to the results, they expect someone to read the content and then repost it here, and that would be ok, but tomorrow another will come along, with a similar question and not even bother to browse the forum, and read the one that was answered just recently.
I could understand where the person that sent me the PM is coming from, and fortunately I think they decided to not leave the forum, and have all their posts removed.
But it is sad, that these people that refuse to even try to do a search or find the answers to problems , that can be solved just by looking at some other threads on that topic, or a simple search and reading some tutorials. It is sad that it has reached a point that, long time members and ones that take time to give good answers ,it is sad that the forum has degenerated to that.
I commented , maybe we need a moderator to simply reply, " That question has all ready been asked "1580 " times, please do a search and browse the forum", and then simply close the topic. Maybe after a while these types would get the message ?
That is all from me, I am going to crawl back under my bridge now and go to sleep.
"What we expect you have already Done"

Before doing anything, read the Debian documentation:
Debian Documentation
How to ask the smart way
Debian Foro Español
======================
For the Birds
User avatar
GarryRicketson
 
Posts: 4219
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby golinux » 2016-04-28 21:10

Yes, it has gotten much worse. 1. 'We've' managed to create a generation of idiots. 2. It's the expected result of trying to popularize Linux and turn it into Windoze/MacOS. Things are much different over on Devuan. It's a 180 from what goes on here.
May the FORK be with you!
User avatar
golinux
 
Posts: 1241
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby spacex » 2016-04-28 22:29

golinux wrote:Yes, it has gotten much worse. 1. 'We've' managed to create a generation of idiots. 2. It's the expected result of trying to popularize Linux and turn it into Windoze/MacOS. Things are much different over on Devuan. It's a 180 from what goes on here.


But not 180 enough to stop you from visiting the idiots :P
spacex
 
Posts: 633
Joined: 2015-01-17 01:27

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby ralph.ronnquist » 2016-04-29 12:50

Without disagreeing with the prevailing sentiment, to me the quality of a thread relates more to the answers and discussion than the original post.

Of course, I'm only browsing the forum on the off chance of learning new stuff, both in the way of "oh, can you have problem with that?" and "wow, that's a neat thing!", and by the looks of it, I'm still far away from filled up. I can easily ignore any thread for whatever reason, and occasionally I drop in where I believe I can contribute.
User avatar
ralph.ronnquist
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 2015-12-19 01:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Quality of Forum Threads

Postby lukas » 2016-04-29 19:31

ralph.ronnquist wrote:Without disagreeing with the prevailing sentiment, to me the quality of a thread relates more to the answers and discussion than the original post.


Yup.
And that sure has gone south.
Though spacex ist right: the best might be to not go here at all. Or at least not expect anything.
lukas
 
Posts: 87
Joined: 2011-07-30 15:43

Previous

Return to Forum stuff & feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

fashionable