Debian User Forums

Fellow forum users,

I'm noticing a steep decline in the quality of the forum threads here.
While this has produced some great comic relief, the truth is that mostly it's
just annoying to see a thread where someone clearly didn't even bother to
do the slightest bit of research before asking their question. And when it's done,
subjects don't reflect the content -- which in turn is vague or hard to read.
Please, for the sake of keeping a sane and functioning board, heed the following
advice:

1. Read this great advice on how to ask questions the smart way
2. Take a look at this wonderful guide for beginners on this forum.
3. Please, search the net first
-first the forums
-then other websites with your favourite Internet search machine
4. Then ask questions following the advice in 1

Thank you for your time!

I've noticed what you've noticed, but I traditionally attribute these short-term spikes in apparent global stupidity ("I typed in some commands but nothing happened. How to fix?") to trolls.

I could be totally wrong (obviously), but my thinking goes like this. Long runs of postings from folks who lack electrically detectable brain activity are just as unlikely, statistically speaking, as long runs of thoughtful, well-articulated posts from folks who are flummoxed over a genuinely nontrivial problem.

I've noticed with some interest that several recent posters pointedly ignore really good suggestions--almost as if they know that those suggestions will work, so they don't dare even acknowledge them. Instead, they launch into a whole new tangent of utterly moronic questions. ("Unable to log in after unplugging keyboard. What's wrong with Debian anyway??") Such things may happen occasionally, but when they happen several times in a row, I can't help but think it's not a coincidence.

But as I said, statistically-grounded, but still just a hunch.

dasein wrote:I've noticed what you've noticed, but I traditionally attribute these short-term spikes in apparent global stupidity ("I typed in some commands but nothing happened. How to fix?") to trolls.
. . .
But as I said, statistically-grounded, but still just a hunch.

I have been thinking the same: trolls.

Bulkley wrote:

dasein wrote:I've noticed what you've noticed, but I traditionally attribute these short-term spikes in apparent global stupidity ("I typed in some commands but nothing happened. How to fix?") to trolls.
. . .
But as I said, statistically-grounded, but still just a hunch.

I have been thinking the same: trolls.[

+1

Crewp wrote:I think the world is getting dummer.

Impossible, stupidity is infinite.

:put cone hat back on and slumps back into corner:

Its nothing unique to this forum...most Linux forums, heck most forums in general are trending this way.

I agree that it is a result of the general dumbing down of society.

Crewp wrote:I think the world is getting dummer.

So people can't even spell dumber

HuangLao wrote:Its nothing unique to this forum...most Linux forums, heck most forums in general are trending this way.

I agree that it is a result of the general dumbing down of society.

Agree that most forums are trending this way.

However, it's not (IMHO) a case of the world getting dumber but that technology is allowing those who previously did not access places like this, to now do so.

Curious observation. I have been involved with another forum for many years and we used to get a rash of stupid question threads by noobs roughly monthly. We eventually realised that the occurrence coincided with the full moon. Believe it or not, it happened every time.

That is very interesting.

Must be alot of full moons the last few years.

roseway wrote:

Crewp wrote:I think the world is getting dummer.

So people can't even spell dumber

Not everyone knows english well. Anyway, I agree. Not trolls, just lazy inexperienced people. Those that some may call stupid, or dumb...

I think the world is becoming a more frustrating place to live, in general. Frustrated people often are not the best at problem solving, asking for help in a sensible manner, or even receiving help.

I read several Linux forums, and it's pretty much the same all over. I attribute it to people fleeing Windows. All they know is Windows, and they don't know how to adjust to a society which values individual research and technical knowledge. They're just poor lost souls who've always been in the Windows ecosystem. They'll learn, or they'll go back to Windows.

Just as relevant as properly-framed questions to the quality of forum threads are properly-framed answers. Novice questioners may be referred to How to ask Questions the smart way and What we expect you have already done but some more experienced users might do well to read, or re-read How to Help Someone use a Computer.
Although good questions may have declined, no one can consistently give the best answers; but when some questioners, dismissively, don't even have the courtesy to reply, let alone thank others, for answering their posts, one feels little inclination to help further, even when one knows the solution.

The thing that's bugging me at the moment: Why are so many running Testing, when most of them appear to have no idea how to debug the inevitable problems?
Tempted to just answer every "I'm running Stretch and my desktop went away, Halp." type question (here and elsewhere) with "Don't run testing".

steve_v wrote:The thing that's bugging me at the moment: Why are so many running Testing, when most of them appear to have no idea how to debug the inevitable problems?

+1

steve_v wrote:Tempted to just answer every "I'm running Stretch and my desktop went away, Halp." type question (here and elsewhere) with "Don't run testing".

+∞
That's become my default answer every time I see someone whine about breakage in Testing. If Testing didn't break, its very existence would be utterly pointless.

steve_v wrote:The thing that's bugging me at the moment: Why are so many running Testing, when most of them appear to have no idea how to debug the inevitable problems?

Why? You can bet your bottom dollar that the lower the post count, the greater the chances are they're running testing. The route they've come by in a short time is likely to be from Windows -> Ubuntu -> Mint -> Debian Testing; it's likely that, with their little knowledge, most see testing as an "upgrade" from stable to newer and shinier software and are confident they can run it before they've learned to walk.

Pratfalls are amusing. How would we entertain ourselves without them?!

I am tempted to play Devil's Advocate here.

Distros like Ubuntu and Linux Mint are often said to be suitable for beginners. Debian is said to be for more experienced users. Why? Is the system intrinsically more difficult? (O.K. Testing and Unstable!) Is the documentation less accessible? Is the community support less?

By telling people to look at this and read this are we effectively saying RTFM? "What we expect you have already Done” refers to “A Beginners Guide to Debian”.” A Beginners Guide to Debian is” dated 2010. It says , for example, "Stable is currently Lenny. Testing is currently Squeeze". Just what beginners want to know.

A good example of documentation might be https://www.linuxliteos.com/manual/

If someone makes their first post and asks a simple question giving them a simple answer might mean that they just sail away

If someone has made 145 posts and ask a simple question maybe they are never going to “get it”. (An 80 year old friend asks me over and over and over how to get his digital photos off his camera and into his computer. I tell him, but the answer will never be for him to “read the instructions”.

arochester wrote:A good example of documentation might be https://www.linuxliteos.com/manual/

Perhaps, but a cursory glance at that "mobile-ised" menu makes me want to pluck out my eyes.
It also appears to be long on pictures and short on technical details, catering heavily to the "if it isn't clickable, it's too hard" crowd.
Too image-heavy for me, and it's not going to render well in links.

How could one write an "easy mode" guide like that for debian, when there's no way to tell what desktop a user has installed, or if they have one at all? All those bandwidth-sucking pictures become meaningless.
With great flexibility, some newbie-friendliness must be sacrificed.

Thankfully, there are still man-pages - the one true source of information.
Alternatively, one could read the manuals. And by "read" I mean actually read, not just glance at.

kedaha wrote:

steve_v wrote:The thing that's bugging me at the moment: Why are so many running Testing, when most of them appear to have no idea how to debug the inevitable problems?

Why? You can bet your bottom dollar that the lower the post count, the greater the chances are they're running testing. The route they've come by in a short time is likely to be from Windows -> Ubuntu -> Mint -> Debian Testing; it's likely that, with their little knowledge, most see testing as an "upgrade" from stable to newer and shinier software and are confident they can run it before they've learned to walk.

I can't see how most people who have reached the decision to give Debian a try, navigated the web site to find the ISOs, and managed to get the system installed could possibly look at the words "stable," "testing," and "unstable" without some idea of what those words might imply.

Then again, I don't know how many times I've read comments along the lines of, "Debian Testing is more 'stable' than most other distros' final releases." Perhaps comments like those are a big part of the problem.