Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

Code of conduct, suggestions, and information on forums.debian.net.

Is the "Middle number" question too confusing?

Poll ended at 2009-12-04 19:56

Yes
7
41%
No
6
35%
3
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

Message
Author
User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#16 Post by edbarx »

It violates logic. The median is definitely not 3.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
Tadeas
Posts: 1013
Joined: 2008-09-22 09:11
Location: Prague
Contact:

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#17 Post by Tadeas »

0+1+2+3+4+5=15
15/6=2.5
2.5 rounds to 3.
It seems pretty easy for me - and it requires human intelligence. Besides, as already stated, a human will try more times, whereas a bot probably won't.
Because let’s face it, the unfortunate aspect of software development is that it involves humans. Mewling, disorganized, miserably analog humans. Sometimes they smell bad.

User avatar
Raffles10
Posts: 191
Joined: 2008-12-09 16:36
Location: London, UK

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#18 Post by Raffles10 »

edbarx wrote:It violates logic. The median is definitely not 3.
Correct. To work out the median: there are six numbers so (6+1)/2 = 3.5, so the median is the 3.5th number ? :?

There is no median. :mrgreen:

0 is a number. Sums of numbers are always numbers; 1 - 1 = 0. 0 isn't 0.9999* nor 0.1111* it has a definite value and is considered a number.
Debian Squeeze + KDE 4.4.4 + AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000 + nVidia GeForce 8600

User avatar
Raffles10
Posts: 191
Joined: 2008-12-09 16:36
Location: London, UK

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#19 Post by Raffles10 »

Tadeas wrote:0+1+2+3+4+5=15
15/6=2.5
2.5 rounds to 3.
It seems pretty easy for me - and it requires human intelligence. Besides, as already stated, a human will try more times, whereas a bot probably won't.
That isn't the median it's the mean. :wink:
Debian Squeeze + KDE 4.4.4 + AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000 + nVidia GeForce 8600

User avatar
Tadeas
Posts: 1013
Joined: 2008-09-22 09:11
Location: Prague
Contact:

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#20 Post by Tadeas »

Raffles10 wrote:That isn't the median it's the mean. :wink:
The question is what's the middle number. And 3 is the closest as I proved above.
Because let’s face it, the unfortunate aspect of software development is that it involves humans. Mewling, disorganized, miserably analog humans. Sometimes they smell bad.

User avatar
julian67
Posts: 4633
Joined: 2007-04-06 14:39
Location: Just hanging around
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#21 Post by julian67 »

Tadeas wrote:
Raffles10 wrote:That isn't the median it's the mean. :wink:
The question is what's the middle number. And 3 is the closest as I proved above.
The middle number is 7.5
Wisdom from my inbox: "do not mock at your pottenocy"

User avatar
Raffles10
Posts: 191
Joined: 2008-12-09 16:36
Location: London, UK

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#22 Post by Raffles10 »

Tadeas wrote:
Raffles10 wrote:That isn't the median it's the mean. :wink:
The question is what's the middle number. And 3 is the closest as I proved above.
Middle and median are the same thing. What you did was to work out the mean number, which is quite different. :wink:
Debian Squeeze + KDE 4.4.4 + AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000 + nVidia GeForce 8600

milomak
Posts: 2160
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#23 Post by milomak »

where is the "what" option?
Desktop: A320M-A PRO MAX, AMD Ryzen 5 3600, GALAX GeForce RTX™ 2060 Super EX (1-Click OC) - Sid, Win10, Arch Linux, Gentoo, Solus
Laptop: hp 250 G8 i3 11th Gen - Sid
Kodi: AMD Athlon 5150 APU w/Radeon HD 8400 - Sid

User avatar
Dynamo
Posts: 46
Joined: 2009-11-12 00:22
Location: Canada

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#24 Post by Dynamo »

I voted "Yes" (the "middle number" question is too confusing).

Defeating the bot is one thing, confusing the human by the question AND the hint is another thing. Because this is the only site I see such a confusing antibot system. I am not convinced by the efficiency of this confusing mechanism as the answer seems to be a constant.

You can achieve the same effect by replacing by a question like "Give a number less than 64". Then on subsequent failure, the screen just gives an extra hint to guide the user to the right answer (like "The secret number is higher/lower"). Starting with 64, in 6 attempts max (2^6 = 64) the user should find the correct answer.

Admittedly, a bot specially designed will still beat that system. As it also beats the constant answer "3" of the aforementioned confusing question. The new mechanism will be also frustrating for the user, but, at least, the poor guy knows why and when his registration misery will end.

User avatar
Mez
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Posts: 112
Joined: 2009-04-23 22:04

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#25 Post by Mez »

Dynamo wrote:Starting with 64, in 6 attempts max (2^6 = 64) the user should find the correct answer.
Not too sure how you got 6 attempts here

> 100
< The number is lower
> 99
< The number is lower
> 98
< The number is lower
> 97
< The number is lower
> 96
< The number is lower
> 95
< The number is lower
> 94
< The number is lower

User avatar
Dynamo
Posts: 46
Joined: 2009-11-12 00:22
Location: Canada

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#26 Post by Dynamo »

Mez wrote:
Dynamo wrote:Starting with 64, in 6 attempts max (2^6 = 64) the user should find the correct answer.
Not too sure how you got 6 attempts here
You use the bubble sort algorithm.

Using your example:
- Machine: The number is lower (than 100)
- You: 50 (the middle between 100 and 1)
- Machine : the secret number is higher
- You: 75 (the middle between 50 and 100)
- Machine: the secret number is lower
- You: 62 (the middle between 50 and 75).
- Machine: the secret number is lower
etc.

As you see in only 3 answers, I already know that the secret number is between 51 and 61. And this is with a starting number of 100. For 100, you need 7 guesses max (2^7 = 128). Hope you see what I meant.

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#27 Post by edbarx »

You can use a monochromatic picture that doesn't depict text. By monochromatic I do not mean necessarily a black and white picture. Any colour can do, especially uncommon ones. Then, present the user with a multiple choice question.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#28 Post by edbarx »

Suggestion 2:

Generate a picture by slightly modifying random noise. This should be more diffilcult for bots to read. Then ask the user what he/she sees.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
jheaton5
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2008-08-20 01:40
Location: Newnan, GA, USA

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#29 Post by jheaton5 »

edbarx wrote:Suggestion 2:

Generate a picture by slightly modifying random noise. This should be more diffilcult for bots to read. Then ask the user what he/she sees.
Given the individual differences among varous users, how would you generate a list of acceptable responses?
debian sid

User avatar
Pick2
Posts: 790
Joined: 2007-07-07 13:31
Location: Decatur Il

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#30 Post by Pick2 »

Give them a 20 question timed IQ test
100 or more ---> Regular member
80 - 100 ----> Beginners thread only
less than 80 ---> send them to Microsoft forums where they'll be happy :lol:

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#31 Post by edbarx »

jheaton5 wrote:Given the individual differences among varous users, how would you generate a list of acceptable responses?
The basis of my suggestion is that humans are much more capable at image recognition compared to a bot. The noise I am referring to, is the "image" generated when there is no video signal. Modern TV sets tend to block that.

Obviously, one has to use simple images and users should be presented with a multiple choice question.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
jheaton5
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2008-08-20 01:40
Location: Newnan, GA, USA

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#32 Post by jheaton5 »

got it. I thought you were randomly generating pictures.
debian sid

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusing?

#33 Post by edbarx »

Generating the images:

Noise pixel: (R, G, B)
Image pixel: (r, g, b)
Mixing factor: f where 0 <= f <= 1

Resultant red component = f*R + (1 - f)*r
green = f*G + (1 - f)*g
blue = f*B + (1 - f)*b

f can be varied until the image is barely distinguishable.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

ryanfaescotland
Posts: 5
Joined: 2011-08-19 10:43

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusi

#34 Post by ryanfaescotland »

Yup too confusing. It's pretty clear after getting it wrong but you shouldn't have to get a question wrong to get through. Even "what is the middle number rounded up?" would make it clearer. Man this is the sort of thing that will niggle away at me all day now, a little part of me wants to go re-register so I can get it right first time. :(

User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 5346
Joined: 2009-10-05 07:54
Location: enzed
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Is the "What is the middle number?" Question too confusi

#35 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Maybe it should require typing in the contents of

Code: Select all

man man
:twisted:
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...

Post Reply