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Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

Code of conduct, suggestions, and information on forums.debian.net.

Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

Yes. Debian only please.
22
19%
50-50. Please censor complaints about Ubuntu.
16
14%
No. Censorship in any form is unacceptable.
79
68%
 
Total votes: 117

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Soul Singin'
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Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#1 Post by Soul Singin' »

Why does every loser who dislikes Ubuntu or got banned from Ubuntu Forums feel the need to bring his complaint over here? Why do heartbroken Ubuntu users feel the need to search for solace at Debian Forums?

I have no sympathy for them. Their whines and cries irritate me.

So I propose censoring discussion of Ubuntu. Not a complete ban. Just a ban on Ubuntu whininess. If all goes well, the Ubuntu exiles will leave us alone and bother the Fedora people instead. :mrgreen:
.

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NCCarlos
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#2 Post by NCCarlos »

Poll results now show 100% in favor of banning Ubuntu whining. :lol:

Edit: I'm in favor of debian only. Discussing Ubuntu or any OS is fine in Offtopic, of course.

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AdrianTM
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#3 Post by AdrianTM »

1. People who use Ubuntu (or Windows or Fedora or any other OS) and ask for help here should be politely invited to search for help on the appropriate forum.

2. People who constantly bitch about Ubuntu or Ubuntu users should be reminded that this is a Debian forum not a Ubuntu Piñata Fest Forum (it makes Debian users look infantile and frankly idiotic).

3. No censorship should be used, unless people are spamming or trolling.
Ubuntu hate is a mental derangement.

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Soul Singin'
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#4 Post by Soul Singin' »

AdrianTM wrote:1. People who use Ubuntu (or Windows or Fedora or any other OS) and ask for help here should be politely invited to search for help on the appropriate forum.
There's a big blue logo on top that says "Debian User Forums." Do you think they missed it?
AdrianTM wrote:2. People who constantly bitch about Ubuntu or Ubuntu users should be reminded that this is a Debian forum not a Ubuntu Piñata Fest Forum (it makes Debian users look infantile and frankly idiotic).
A very good reason to censor Ubuntu whining.
AdrianTM wrote:3. No censorship should be used, unless people are spamming or trolling.
Can we classify Ubuntu whining as "spamming" or "trolling?"
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Last edited by Soul Singin' on 2010-04-10 06:09, edited 2 times in total.

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nadir
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#5 Post by nadir »

As far i know kind of whining doesn't work as of now (you might use this or that OS, you will get into trouble. Worst case: ignored, best case: a bit of fun). It's good the way it is.
As said i would rather vote for less than for more rules (if someone would ask me). Spamming sucks, but i think that's clear.

I didn't vote, cause i don't know if it is a joke or a serious question.
"I am not fine with it, so there is nothing for me to do but stand aside." M.D.

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AdrianTM
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#6 Post by AdrianTM »

Soul Singin' wrote:Can we classify Ubuntu whining as "spamming" or "trolling?"
Spamming is about promoting a product so unless the intent is to promote Ubuntu (or other OS) this would not constitute spamming.

Trolling involves bad faith, not all the people who ask for help about Ubuntu or on the contrary bitch about Ubuntu do that in bad faith, usually a reminder that this is a Debian forum should suffice, if it becomes a flame fest and the thread doesn't bring anything useful it can be locked, that's something that moderators can decide (can't say that I have big trust in moderators though, I've seen moderators on this forum who don't have even a shred of common-sense and joined in Ubuntu-bashing fest making Debian forums look pretty infantile).

So, no, in conclusion it's not spamming or trolling (unless it is :grin: ) there should be no special rule, people should be directed to the right forums, if the irrelevant (to the thread/forum) discussion doesn't stop the moderators can make the decision to close the thread.

As for "Off topic" threads Ubuntu is a valid subject like any other subject. I don't see why it wouldn't be...
Ubuntu hate is a mental derangement.

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Soul Singin'
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#7 Post by Soul Singin' »

AdrianTM wrote:
Soul Singin' wrote:Can we classify Ubuntu whining as "spamming" or "trolling?"
Spamming is about promoting a product so unless the intent is to promote Ubuntu (or other OS) this would not constitute spamming.
OK. I have to concede that point.
AdrianTM wrote:Trolling involves bad faith, not all the people who ask for help about Ubuntu or on the contrary bitch about Ubuntu do that in bad faith,
I do not care if a person legitimately asks for help. What irritates me is the bitching about Ubuntu.

Why are we continually subjected to threads like: Ubuntu the Debian Downgrade? Such threads just invite trash talk about Ubuntu.
.

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llivv
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censured?

#8 Post by llivv »

No censuring in a perfect world is what I want. What I'm gonna get! now that is the question?
I sure remember what I got.....
In memory of Ian Ashley Murdock (1973 - 2015) founder of the Debian project.

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NCCarlos
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#9 Post by NCCarlos »

Soul Singin' wrote: Such threads just invite trash talk about Ubuntu.
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Yes, but banning only Ubuntu complaints makes the forum pro-Ubuntu.

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AdrianTM
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#10 Post by AdrianTM »

Soul Singin' wrote:I do not care if a person legitimately asks for help. What irritates me is the bitching about Ubuntu.
I agree with you, see my sig... :grin:

However I don't believe in making rules against stupidity. If that would be the solution would have to ban most of the users. It would be enough if forum users made it clear that this is not OK. Till now Debian forum users haven't done that, it means that's OK with them... even more that seems to be the "culture" of this forum, if making fun of... how original... "brown", is what people here consider they have to do to be accepted as true Debian users... what can we do? At most we can make it clear that's idiotic and you can be a valuable Debian user and forum member without kicking other distros.
Ubuntu hate is a mental derangement.

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bzyk
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#11 Post by bzyk »

NO CENSURING!
Really - no!
It's doesn't matter what whining is it. You can just ignore him, but censuring... It will be just like on ubuntu forums. Debian is free, so allow for free speech on forum.
Artur 'bzyk' Frydel
In /dev/null no one can hear your scream.

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Soul Singin'
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#12 Post by Soul Singin' »

AdrianTM wrote:However I don't believe in making rules against stupidity.

I don't believe in making rules against stupidity either. Instead, I think we should tax it. Fortunately, most countries have such a tax. It's called the lottery.
AdrianTM wrote:If that would be the solution would have to ban most of the users.

That's fine with me.
AdrianTM wrote:even more that seems to be the "culture" of this forum, if making fun of... how original... "brown", is what people here consider they have to do to be accepted as true Debian users... what can we do? At most we can make it clear that's idiotic and you can be a valuable Debian user and forum member without kicking other distros.
Let me place that in a different context:
even more that seems to be the "culture" of this country, if making fun of "negroes" is what people here consider they have to do to be accepted as true Americans... what can we do? At most we can make it clear that's idiotic and you can be a valuable American and true patriot without lynching other races.
But America didn't take that approach. Instead, legislation was passed in 1964 to outlaw discrimination and racial segregation. Subsequent to that legislation were a large number of hate crimes laws. The result has been (in my opinion) a more tolerant country.

The same is true here. Make it a rule that you have to respect the fact that this is a Debian Forum. This is not the appropriate place to whine about the moderators over at Ubuntu Forums. Nor is it the proper place to announce your disappointment with Ubuntu because the upgrade from Pesty Possum to Quirky Quail broke X, Y and Z and forced you to reinstall.
.

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AdrianTM
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#13 Post by AdrianTM »

Soul Singin' wrote: But America didn't take that approach. Instead, legislation was passed in 1964 to outlaw discrimination and racial segregation. Subsequent to that legislation were a large number of hate crimes laws. The result has been (in my opinion) a more tolerant country.
.
None of those laws stop the freedom of speech and the right (no matter how despicable) to say that black people are inferior or that white people are superior. Speech is not part of "hate crimes" (and don't get me started, I don't think that hate crime is a good idea, I think it smacks of thoughtcrime and thoughtcontrol).

And let's not make false analogies, it's one thing to talk silly things about an OS and another thing to talk idiotic things about a category of people who were enslaved at some point in history and discriminated afterwards.
Ubuntu hate is a mental derangement.

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llivv
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#14 Post by llivv »

here is a link to the censor wiki page
with a link to the censure wiki page at the bottom and maybe it needs a link to the licensure wiki too, but it's already past my bedtime
In memory of Ian Ashley Murdock (1973 - 2015) founder of the Debian project.

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saulgoode
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#15 Post by saulgoode »

I answered "No". Though I don't always consider it unacceptable, 'tis extremely rare that censorship isn't a matter of the cure being worse than the disease.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- Brian Kernighan

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Absent Minded
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#16 Post by Absent Minded »

Well, I have to admit that at first I thought you were joking when you asked me about this topic but I see now that you really wernt. It is my perception that we already have enough censorship on this forum.

As far as discusions of Ubuntu goes I don't mind them as long as they are kept in offtopic where they belong. It is my opinion that there is a differance between distro bashing and stating the facts of one's own personal experiance with it and or why one feels that it is bad for the "entire" community.

As for coming here to complain about the management on another forum... I think we could do without it but I can understand people wanting to vent. However, if we are going to censor that what is next and to what extent? I for one don't want to be banning people because they said "Hey, I don't like Gnome." Admittedly it is a little bit of an extream example but where do you draw the line?

Granted, Ubuntu gets allot of flack and we get run-off from it. Thankfully, they have also realised that there is a problem and are making some changes to try and make things better. I hope it works for them. If it is better for them, things should be less pronounced over here as well.
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emariz
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#17 Post by emariz »

Systematic ignorance of those threads is politically more suitable than censoring them. This way, their authors won't have a value to appeal to.

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Parsifal
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#18 Post by Parsifal »

I don't think discussion of Ubuntu should be censored, provided it's in the right place (i.e. the Offtopic board, or elsewhere on occasions when it's about an issue which applies to Debian also). On a Debian forum, obviously most of the discussion can be expected to be about Debian anyway. My reason for this is that I think censorship of other distros divides users of GNU/Linux, which is contrary to the philosophy of free software; we should all be banding together as free software users against the proprietary market majority, and not becoming divided amongst ourselves. I have been using Ubuntu for two years now, only this week having switched to Debian, and I've always seen Debian as being an older brother of sorts to Ubuntu.

At the same time, I do think simply complaining about Ubuntu should be discouraged (discouraged, not censored). Again, it encourages division between distributions that really ought to cooperate. Ubuntu serves a different purpose to Debian, but that's part of free software; anyone can, and should be able to, choose the distribution that best suits their needs without feeling estranged from the communities of others. Obviously each distribution will have its own unique community, but we definitely shouldn't be putting up walls between them; rather, we should be building roads.
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Soul Singin'
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#19 Post by Soul Singin' »

Parsifal wrote:At the same time, I do think simply complaining about Ubuntu should be discouraged (discouraged, not censored).
This "discouragement proposal" is disingenuous. By what means do you propose to "discourage" Ubuntu whining?

What can a moderator or administrator do to "discourage" Ubuntu exiles from coming over here and sharing their sob stories about how they were mistreated over at Ubuntu Forums?

Do you think those people read the Forum Guidelines before they start complaining about Ubuntu? Do you think those people will read a sticky in the Forum stuff & feedback section before they begin ranting?

Of course not. So once the Ubuntu Piñata Fest begins, what can a moderator/administrator do to stop it that does not consist of "censorship?"
.

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mojoman
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Re: Should discussion of Ubuntu be censored?

#20 Post by mojoman »

Soul Singin' wrote: This "discouragement proposal" is disingenuous. By what means do you propose to "discourage" Ubuntu whining?

What can a moderator or administrator do to "discourage" Ubuntu exiles from coming over here and sharing their sob stories about how they were mistreated over at Ubuntu Forums?

Do you think those people read the Forum Guidelines before they start complaining about Ubuntu? Do you think those people will read a sticky in the Forum stuff & feedback section before they begin ranting?

Of course not. So once the Ubuntu Piñata Fest begins, what can a moderator/administrator do to stop it that does not consist of "censorship?"
.
Well, the mods can move the thread to off-topic if it isn't there already. They can remind people to keep it civilized and according to the forum guidelines (i.e. no hateful content and such). I think that such a remainder do have *some* effect on *most* people. If the thread is spawned by a new user to the forum they may well have the impression that bashing Ubuntu is a nice way to start out in this forum and be accepted (I think that forums.debian.net have a reputation for having a lot of Ubuntu bashers but I might be wrong about that). If so, such a post by a mod might get them to think twice. But true enough, this forum has a few Ubuntu Piñata Fests during my time here. I you ask me, some of them have been kind of funny, some have really been low-water marks.
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