Ok OK

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Re: Ok OK

Postby Absent Minded » 2010-06-02 23:03

His ban is not perminant, if he chooses to come back and use his existing account he can do so in a few weeks. Having said that, no one has stopped him from creating a new account to use if he were to have an emergency and need help.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby nadir » 2010-06-04 10:49

Absent Minded wrote:His ban is not perminant, if he chooses to come back and use his existing account he can do so in a few weeks. Having said that, no one has stopped him from creating a new account to use if he were to have an emergency and need help.

Thanks for the info.

If i am correct Adrian had one post in this thread which was not ok.
Without knowing any internals i think a ban for "a few weeks" is a bit hard.
(2 weeks is a few weeks, but 12 is also a few weeks).
He was here when i arrived (bout Nov.08) and has got a lot of posts, about 2500 (with most of them i disagree, but thats not the point).

I don't think banning is a good way of solving problems (but it might be there are no other ways).
I for one would think it was a bit sad if he would be gone from here.

I don't find the words, so, to sum it up: it's not that i wouldn't mind if one gets lost.
That doesn't say that what he has posted was ok (au contraire, and i have reported a post where he said something similar. I never report posts of the users, only spam, so i was really angry about it).

Come on...
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Re: Ok OK

Postby julian67 » 2010-06-04 11:11

On most boards, groups, irc, or mailing lists you'd get banned for saying what he said, and there would be no way back either. A few weeks exclusion with option to return looks more than fair to me.

Without knowing any internals i think a ban for "a few weeks" is a bit hard


Well I don't know any "internals" either but I do know what I read in the public areas of this board, and the last outburst wasn't isolated but was the culmination of a course of antagonistic behaviour and threads and posts which could have no outcome other than perpetuating or initiating conflict.

Speaking personally I find it refreshing that for the last few weeks people have been able to pass comment related to AdrianTM's pet subject without being harangued, harassed, insulted or being accused of being mentally challenged/malicious/stupid/trolling/dishonest/obnoxious etc etc etc. A discussion gets really difficult when some parties take it upon themselves to destroy any discussion that they disapprove of (and are relentless and monomaniacal in doing so). He even went so far as to try to have discussion of Ubuntu officially disallowed, despite it being a subject very suitable for discussion on a Debian forum. The Debian project leader recently attended the Ubuntu Developer Summit http://www.debian.org/News/project/2010/03/index.en.html. Ubuntu is a downstream for Debian in most areas and an upstream in a few. Many people here and elsewhere use both, or have used both. While this board can't be a support forum for Ubuntu it is definitely the case that Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian and is suitable for discussion, and that those discussions shouldn't be continually disrupted and turned into yet another argument centred on one person's troubled feelings.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby nadir » 2010-06-04 11:23

On most

Yes, on most. Something like that was my point. Not being like most.

You ever heard a judge saying: "You will get into prison for a few years"
? So say: "4 weeks", or say "2 weeks", or say "16 weeks". Or whatever. Something plain and understandable. Not something as vague as "a few weeks". Thats pretty much anything.
Will someone be necessary to un-ban him. Will he remember or simply forget it?

Not sure what to do about Ubuntu. It was one of the main amusements here. Someone needs to jump in.

PS: to give you an example: You remember lolanoob? I guess so. He had a weird outburst, only one day, and since then i did never see him again. Is he banned? For a couple of weeks? What happened to him?
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Re: Ok OK

Postby julian67 » 2010-06-04 11:32

nadir wrote:Not sure what to do about Ubuntu. It was one of the main amusements here. Someone needs to jump in.


How about doing nothing and realising it is just another subject people may want to discuss, including expressing negative or favourable opinions? Somehow it became a special subject because one person went on a crusade to stop it being mentioned in ways he disapproved of, and then at all. Now that he's not here it is just another subject people might or might not mention or discuss. The sky didn't fall on our heads, the sun didn't implode. Nobody got excited or felt the need to crash into threads and try to disrupt them. And strangely nobody complained or cared very much because it wasn't special any more, only another routine discussion, perhaps interesting perhaps not, take it or leave it, no big deal.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby debil » 2010-06-04 12:12

From http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=46212&start=75
julian67 wrote:@ ATM (the only ATM I've encountered that contains nothing valuable)

One of the gems I've seen on these forums. And pretty much my view on the subject as well. Purely based on ATM's output and attitude.

As AM pointed out, one can always register anew and if one wishes, carry on with the same fixation one carried on with before. ATM's outburst pretty much begged for a ban.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby MALsPa » 2010-06-04 14:42

Looks like julian67 misses AdrianTM. :lol:
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Re: Ok OK

Postby julian67 » 2010-06-04 15:13

MALsPa wrote:Looks like julian67 misses AdrianTM. :lol:


Hmmm...still looking for the humour in that one. But no I don't. It's made a nice change to be able to read threads without anyone trying to destroy them, divert them, shout them down, make all kinds of accusations, call people liars etc. simply because the word Ubuntu has appeared. In lots of threads Ubuntu gets mentioned for a variety of reasons http://forums.debian.net/search.php?keywords=ubuntu&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search and this won't change. What has changed is that these mentions don't any longer automatically incite a rebuke or an argument, the conversations proceed normally, and the fact that someone made a comparison, or described their experience or whatever it is, has returned to being just part of normal conversation instead of a Pavolvian trigger. Looking at how normal and unremarkable these kinds of conversations now are and how contentious they had been offers quite an insight into how one person on a crusade can really ruin a lot of other people's conversations, attempts to get support and so on. I can think of two members who behaved in a similar way whenever synaptic was mentioned, or if any desktop environment other than their favourite was mentioned. They were similarly tedious, fanatical, ill informed, rude and disruptive. One never posts now and the other only posts very rarely and I don't miss them either.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby MALsPa » 2010-06-04 15:30

I understand what you're saying about why Ubuntu is discussed here so often. I've got no problem with that.

It does seem to me that Ubuntu gets bashed here much, much more than at any other Linux forums, and that the bashing is unusually harsh here, and it seems to hint at some degree of jealousy. I'm not the only one who's had that impression. But that's okay, it's really not such a big deal. If it bothers anyone, they can just ignore certain threads and certain posters.

It does seem, however, that Adrian was, and remains, one of your favorite topics of discussion! :lol:
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Re: Ok OK

Postby julian67 » 2010-06-04 16:14

MALsPa wrote:It does seem, however, that Adrian was, and remains, one of your favorite topics of discussion! :lol:


Again struggling to find the hilarity. No, not a favourite. If you prefer facts to speculation you can use the forum search or google site:forums.debian.net and explore my posts by subject and content (if you manage to stay awake long enough) and see for yourself. I just checked AdrianTM's profile and his ban date was 26 May. You can see that most of my posts since that time have been outside of this thread and have no bearing on this person in any way. I posted again in this thread in reply to Nadir partly because he thought the ban was inappropriate and I don't, but also to point out how different and normal the atmosphere is when people can talk normally without someone trying to disrupt them http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=302742#p302742

But it's very hard to avoid engaging with someone when they feel themselves on a mission to disrupt and attack at every chance. One option would be to carefully avoid any thread that person posts in, but when someone is a prolific poster that's hardly possible. Another would be to carefully avoid mention of the subject that triggers the mania but why should people feel bullied and harassed into avoiding topics (or expressing opinions) which are perfectly valid just because someone else doesn't like it/you/something? And what to do when already in a discussion thread and someone joins in with the intent to divert it onto or away from their pet subject? Why should anyone have to feel deterred from posting legitimate posts just to assuage someone else's emotional issues? And why should anyone not challenge this kind of disruption when it occurs? The result of avoiding posting or accepting lousy behaviour is that the person trying to disrupt the board actually succeeds, and nobody is better off for this.

I expect that in replying to your post you probably now feel I am confirming your hilarious assumption, but please bear in mind that I was prompted to reply only by your exquisite use of humour.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby jheaton5 » 2010-06-04 16:22

Jealousy? Hmm.
Take a long standing OS based on the linux kernel. And let's say it was a pioneer in the field of open source operating systems. And let's say it was developed and maintained a purely FOSS system over a period of many years solely by volunteers. Then let's say a guy with more money than he needs to live a decent life, comes along and wants to take this OS developed by volunteers and throw money at it, not to assist the volunteers in developing the orginal system, not by offering to pay the volunteers to continue their work, but to fork the OS and turn it into a bastard system with non-free and proprietary software. He hires professional programmers to exploit the work of the hard working volunteers for his own gain.
Hmm. Jealousy.

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Re: Ok OK

Postby refracta » 2010-06-04 16:32

MALsPa wrote:I understand what you're saying about why Ubuntu is discussed here so often. I've got no problem with that.

It does seem to me that Ubuntu gets bashed here much, much more than at any other Linux forums, and that the bashing is unusually harsh here, and it seems to hint at some degree of jealousy. I'm not the only one who's had that impression. But that's okay, it's really not such a big deal. If it bothers anyone, they can just ignore certain threads and certain posters.

It does seem, however, that Adrian was, and remains, one of your favorite topics of discussion! :lol:


I am sure it seems that way, when looking through your brown colored glasses. Only Ubutnuts think the whole world is focused on ubuntu, the whole world revolves around ubuntu, and anything that reflects negatively on ubuntu is bashing. Bashing is ignorant hatred and I haven't seen any of that.

How can one be jealous of truly free software? I have never understood how that aspect even arises when talking about distros that are 99%+ free software and do not cost money to obtain. I could understand if someone mentioned jealousy between xandros and linspire or something similar but there is nothing (much) in ubuntu that couldn't be rolled out by someone else (including debian) the same day. How can you be jealous of that.

I actually appreciate ubuntu to some degree. If nothing else they have really cranked up the speed at which development occurs. I do not actually think that super-fast-forward is a good thing and some of the progress is more progress for the sake of progress rather than improvement. But I think when the gas runs out and everything slows back down then we can credit ubuntu with moving us too far too fast and we will be in a good place to start improving on the progress that was made. At least most of the progress will have been free software progress and not some underhand deal to obtain codecs or something similar that really cannot be shared in the community. That being said, if ubuntu had never existed then we would of been just fine too. Far too many ubutnuts think that free software was failing and that ubuntu somehow saved it. I could probably 'deal' with ubuntu if it wasn't for the bonehead users. No offense intended to the non-bonehead ubuntu users.
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Re: Ok OK

Postby nadir » 2010-06-04 16:42

@MALsPa:
You might say that Ubuntu is getting bashed more than on any other forum. Well: any other forum would simply censor the permanent discussion of "Why is this and that in Ubuntu, but not in Debian" and all of that kind. If they want to talk about it here, they are allowed to, but have to live with what they get.

Back to the topic:
From what i know Adrian has not been banned for the things which are getting discussed at the moment.
Anyway: I am against banning in general (i may agree or disagree with the person, i may like or not like him. And so on). I am for pluralism. Accept the other one to be different than you are.

btw and just to be honest:
It feels very good to argue in a liberal kind of way, as long it doesn't cost me a penny.
So here is a short song for all of you:
old school? new school? f u , i don't go to school
:mrgreen:
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Re: Ok OK

Postby jheaton5 » 2010-06-04 16:46

refracta wrote:I could probably 'deal' with ubuntu if it wasn't for the bonehead users. No offense intended to the non-bonehead ubuntu users.

Define bonehead. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ok OK

Postby MALsPa » 2010-06-04 16:53

nadir wrote:@MALsPa:
You might say that Ubuntu is getting bashed more than on any other forum. Well: any other forum would simply censor the permanent discussion of "Why is this and that in Ubuntu, but not in Debian" and all of that kind. If they want to talk about it here, they are allowed to, but have to live with what they get.


I understand. It gets a little tiring, but that's life. If's my own fault for getting sucked into some of the threads.

nadir wrote:btw and just to be honest:
It feels very good to argue in a liberal kind of way, as long it doesn't cost me a penny.


Arguing wears me out! Life's too short.
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