clarification:

Have something to say about forums.debian.net itself?

Re: clarification:

Postby nadir » 2011-01-02 09:15

I still think that:
Which means that a post gets edited without being able to read it (or the part which is the "problem")
Which is odd.
And so odd, obviously, that i won't go into it any further.


If it is the way it is: "something must be done" "a decision must be made"
the best thing one can advice here is to do as much reports as possible. Tons of them.
We say "Petze", English seems "tattletale" or "fink"
(the german word means: from now on you are a persona non grata. A paria.)

Not sure if you know what you are running into:
the more you react, the more reports will come.

I also think what Dean wrote above is right, and that you should start to have an eye on that. I have realized the same, and stated so in the show-desktop-thread.
Soon there will be no one left one can report about.
"I am not fine with it, so there is nothing for me to do but stand aside." M.D.
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Re: clarification:

Postby Mr James » 2011-01-02 12:45

I agree with nadir. But...

@nadir: Who the hell puts shit as wallpaper? Get that crap off your PC and put up a decent looking chick.
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Re: clarification:

Postby nadir » 2011-01-02 13:17

Mr James wrote:But...

@nadir: Who the hell puts shit as wallpaper? Get that crap off your PC and put up a decent looking chick.

:lol:

better? the base is the same, but i added a famous Scandinavian women :
h ttp://img408.imageshack.us/i/merdarebuild.png/
WARNING: one will see a wee bit of skin on the shot. Also there is a slight relation to revolutionary ideas, so: kinda politics
The stanchions in the background are by hap, but it fits. My English is still lousy.
If you are not up to that don't repair the link and don't look at it:
You might think it is "agressive passive " or "passive agressive" ( couldn't figure it out yet, perhaps "active regressive")
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Re: clarification:

Postby MeanDean » 2011-01-02 14:22

Absent Minded wrote:.... I decided .... I originally figured ... I edited ....Now that I .... I had been .... I have ....I don't believe....

no need for a team when you have an I
no need to call it a community either


Absent Minded wrote:... I don't believe it is something the search engines should be picking up and associating with this forum....

Yes you should be the one to dictate what is or is not associated with this forum. I am sure debians reputation will be forever tarnished because someone has a turd for a wallpaper.


You have Rule #5 and it is the perfect catch-all for everything. Start enforcing it to the extreme and get on with it. Polite....no signatures that could be considered impolite.....no avatars that could considered impolite.....profanity is never polite....turds are never polite....correcting someones suggestion is not polite.....telling someone you do not like their desktop is not polite....


sage advice like this
.... it's the easiest way to install it. Obviously remove the repository straight afterwards though;....

cannot be corrected as it would be impolite....oh wait....look....nobody did correct it.....surprise surprise....probably scared they would be reported...


I shall have to learn to type while holding my pinky in the air if I wish to visit this forum in the future, shall we have milk with our tea, and a biscuit.....anyone have any grey poupon....dont fart because that is impolite and will be reported....


welcome to stepfordville....



forums feels less like a communal village and more of a prison camp to me....could just be me though...
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Re: clarification:

Postby AMLJ » 2011-01-02 14:32

Well... I think this place is not following Debian... Debian is not full of Is... It has a big community... I remember some time ago I wanted to help the forums, so I decided to become a moderator or something... I thought I could be helpful. Then I understood that people who just help or want to help are not the ones who are allowed to help... Only people who are known by forum admins and mods, and maybe are friends with them can join them.

This is the answer I got:

No.

Groups are there for staff members. These are the people that are recognised by staff, and asked to join the team. People who ask are generally not the kind of person that we want on our staff.


I really think this is not good... If someone likes to help more (has time, doesn't look like a silly person,etc), they should be allowed to...

Well, good part is that most of the users ARE Debian users...

I counted 24 Is in AM's post...

I'm not saying that it's his fault... He is just being honest... Hopefully it doesn't even look like there is a team here...
Last edited by AMLJ on 2011-01-02 15:48, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: clarification:

Postby MeanDean » 2011-01-02 14:44

to get the show on the road I would like to give the mods/admins a quick lesson on how to respond to complainers.......


if you dont like it you are welcome to leave

is a easy one....along with
there are other forums and you may find one of them more suitable

which is a nice dismissal and perfect for someone that is complaining....not to forget
we cant please everyone

which is the universal truth....although it usually just means you are trying to please someone else other than the one you are responding to....


with those few responses you no longer have to discuss anything, consider anything, or even think about what the person is saying.....they are the perfect phrases that are uttered at many MANY other forums anytime something is brought up....and they work....cant argue with them....


go ahead and use them....you know you want to....try them out....see how good they feel....how easy and simple they make everything....it will make things so much easier and simpler....


.
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Re: clarification:

Postby Telemachus » 2011-01-02 17:52

I've pretty much lost track, Dean. Are we (the mods that is) supposed to say that to you or to the people complaining that you don't like? Both? Neither and instead some other group?

Perhaps more seriously, you could consider volunteering as a moderator, if you wish to show us all how it's done.

I have been very busy at work and home, and haven't been on much. I will say that this whole thing looks to me (at a quick read), like a tempest in a teapot. No doubt with a little team spirit and commitment we could stretch this thread out for 10 or even 20 pages, but really, is it worth it?

Somebody apparently has dog shit as a wallpaper. Someone else, of delicate sensibilities no doubt - and more importantly who felt (wrongly I think) he was being insulted by the dog turd wallpaper - made a complaint. AbsentMinded, who probably just wanted everyone to stop acting like four year olds over in the screenshot thread, compromised.

Nobody was hurt. Nobody died. No real turds were even harmed in the process, that I am aware of.

Seriously, is this how we choose to spend our time now?
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Re: clarification:

Postby Telemachus » 2011-01-02 18:02

AMLJ wrote:Well... I think this place is not following Debian... Debian is not full of Is... It has a big community... I remember some time ago I wanted to help the forums, so I decided to become a moderator or something... I thought I could be helpful. Then I understood that people who just help or want to help are not the ones who are allowed to help... Only people who are known by forum admins and mods, and maybe are friends with them can join them.

This is the answer I got:

No.

Groups are there for staff members. These are the people that are recognised by staff, and asked to join the team. People who ask are generally not the kind of person that we want on our staff.


I really think this is not good... If someone likes to help more (has time, doesn't look like a silly person,etc), they should be allowed to...

I don't know what exactly you asked or who replied to you. I would rather not get into issues of personal mail, so to speak. I will say that in my experience, you can help here in many ways. The first and most important way is by answering questions. Let's not forget, that's what this forum is primarily here for: to be a place where people can seek and receive advice about Debian, Linux and computers more generally (in about that order, I suppose, though not by rule). In addition, you can help by flagging posts that are obvious spam.

I don't honestly know what rules (if any) guide the process for becoming a staff member. A while back, there was an open call for spam moderators. I volunteered then, as did AbsentMinded, Saulgoode, Craigevil, MeanDean and some others. Since then, I've taken on other responsibilities, and now that I think about it, I think I was asked rather than volunteering, but that may not be 100% true. I honestly don't recall. I can say that I'm not a Debian developer, nor a friend of any of the people who administer the hosting and maintenance of the forums. So I think that you are incorrect that you need some personal connection to become a mod of any kind. In fact, I think (though I can't be certain) that none of the current mods are personally acquainted with Mez or any of the other admins at that level. We're volunteers, just like anyone else here. Obviously many of us have been at it longer than some, but I believe that sort of thing is the only way anyone has "gotten to know us."
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Re: clarification:

Postby saulgoode » 2011-01-02 18:06

MeanDean wrote:I thought sure we had some admins/mods that could identify a slippery slope and not even start down it....sometimes I surprise myself about how mistaken I can be about things....

Your "slippery slope" argument is based on fallacious logic. It is no more reasonable to suggest that removal of an image featuring a close-up of dog feces will lead to enforcement of mandatory politeness on these forums than it would be to suggest that permitting such an image should lead to the forums being inundated with images of child pornography. Your argument presupposes that a transition of any kind necessarily proceeds to (one of) the extremes, failing to recognize that there may exist "middle ground" solutions from which little deviation is necessary to maximize the benefit and satisfaction of the broad membership of these forums.

As it is effectively the duty of the Moderators to promote gravitation towards this "middle ground" (hence the term "moderation"), I see little productive value in the argument you've provided.

MeanDean wrote:to get the show on the road I would like to give the mods/admins a quick lesson on how to respond to complainers.......


if you dont like it you are welcome to leave

is a easy one....along with
there are other forums and you may find one of them more suitable

which is a nice dismissal and perfect for someone that is complaining....not to forget
we cant please everyone

which is the universal truth....although it usually just means you are trying to please someone else other than the one you are responding to....


with those few responses you no longer have to discuss anything, consider anything, or even think about what the person is saying.....they are the perfect phrases that are uttered at many MANY other forums anytime something is brought up....and they work....cant argue with them....

You seem intent upon fabricating staff behavior people would consider outrageous and then proceeding to rail against that hypothetical behavior. Such rhetoric is pretty much nugatory towards the purpose of discussing the actual situation.

MeanDean wrote:go ahead and use them....you know you want to....try them out....see how good they feel....how easy and simple they make everything....it will make things so much easier and simpler....

I disagree with the premise that the hypotheticals you presented would in actuality make things easier on the staff but even were that true, the fact that the forum staff doesn't actually behave the way you suggest should be indicative that their motivation is far removed from "making things easier and simpler".

Furthermore, if "easier and simpler" were the main motivation of the staff in administering these forums -- and reductio ad absurdum arguments such as the one you present should be considered acceptable -- the logical conclusion would be for the forum staff to never take any action whatsoever. No removal of advertising spam, no limits upon profane language, no requirements that members focus upon Debian-specific issues, and no expectations that responders to posts stay on topic. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I would submit that both extremes of simplicity are equally absurd -- and the fact that some other forums may engage in such absurdities has no bearing upon the administration of these forums. It is obvious, at least to me, that there must be some degree of staff intervention into the posting that takes place in these forums so they might provide a reasonable environment for Debian users to share their experiences and assist each other in their endeavors. Granted, each of us will have differing opinions on how best to provide that environment, but feigning mock horror at hypothetical repression is not to my mind a particularly effective manner in which to express one's opinions.
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Re: clarification:

Postby JohnDeere630 » 2011-01-02 18:17

Telemachus wrote: No real turds were even harmed in the process, that I am aware of.


:lol: :lol:

Seriously...this is the real reason I love this forum so much. Where else can you find a flame-war over using a picture of dog crap on someone's desktop? If this forum loses this quality of a small amount of whimsy/silliness, then it is no better than the unubnut forums...just endless dull reiterations of "I can't access my scanner as regular user" and "I can do XYZ on windblows, but can't read instructions, so I can't get it to work on Debian, therefore Debian/Linux sucks bogwater, and you are all idiots for using it"

On the bright side, just the fact that we are engaged in a debate, polite more or less, between users and mods, speaks volumes. AM, Saulgood or Telemachus could have just deleted/locked threads with no debate allowed, and/or even banned users like MeanDean or Nadir. If this forum ever gets to that stage, I think it will lose the users that make it so interesting.

One final thought, just my 2 cents: To whomsoever "reported" the Dog Crap Desktop: Grow the f*ck up & get a f*cking life! :roll:
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Re: clarification:

Postby nadir » 2011-01-02 18:31

Telemachus wrote:AbsentMinded, who probably just wanted everyone to stop acting like four year olds over in the screenshot thread, compromised.

I have no idea how many reports are getting done.
As far it is about other users i think i have made 3-5 (as jalu and nadir, that are 2 years or so) I have all but one of them announced.
The question is if the 4-year-old might be the "reporters" (i said: "the man in the background" )
(and if, in that case, "something _must_ be done").


Posting 13 (or ca 13) shots of non-Debian distros in a row, and nothing else, would be -in my eyes- well worth to be reported.
Would i do that?
Obviously the answer is no.
I will not start to do it neither, cause i would feel like an idiot if i would.

What i said in my first post is still nothing but a riddle to me.
(perhaps i should start reporting posts without reading them, to make it a bit more clear)
Seems like i am the only one (also a riddle...)

To get back on the topic:
i must have created 2 or 3 piles during this mess (so like usual). All of them have been fine.
(one can add a smiley here, cause that was kind of a joke, though i really did it).

PS:
No one seem to have realized that it is quite a professional "photo", whatever content it may have got.
It was my wallpaper for a long time, and is now again.
I can't google for it as i have renamed it. It is from a "professional" site.
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Re: clarification:

Postby Telemachus » 2011-01-02 18:43

nadir wrote:
Telemachus wrote:AbsentMinded, who probably just wanted everyone to stop acting like four year olds over in the screenshot thread, compromised.

I have no idea how many reports are getting done.
As far it is about other users i think i have made 3-5 (as jalu and nadir, that are 2 years or so) I have all but one of them announced.
The question is if the 4-year-old might be the "reporters".
(and if, in that case, "something _must_ be done").

I didn't have tons of reports in mind. (There have been a handful, but not batches. Maybe four or so in that thread in the last few weeks? That's a guess.)

I meant more the general tone and tenor of the conversation. As I said, I skimmed it over quickly. Yes, he's posting non-Debian screenshots. Yes, that might strike you as odd. No, so far as I can see there's no rule against that. Thank god. The mods shouldn't have to spend their lives splitting and screening (!?!) screenshot threads. I repeat my earlier (and main) point: is this - this whole issue, this whole debate - how we really want to spend our time and energy? I can only speak for myself, but my answer is a firm no. I'm going back to figuring out how to make searchable tag-clouds in Ruby. I hope everyone else has a pleasant Sunday, too.
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Re: clarification:

Postby nadir » 2011-01-02 18:45

ok, last time and as short as possible:
I think editing a post without being able to "see" the problem is very serious.
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Re: clarification:

Postby Pick2 » 2011-01-02 18:51

So to recap:
new years eve: all hell breaks out ( I'm sure it had nothing to do with drinking alcohol :P )
new years day: the hangovers kick in ... arguments abound
day 2 and sanity is starting to return
Tomorrow it will have all blown over :D
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Re: clarification:

Postby sossego » 2011-01-02 18:53

Circle Circle
Dot Dot Dot
Now you've got
Your dookie shot.

Eat two mud pies and call me in the morning.
Let my desire and hope surpass my expectations;
And give me the strength to persevere through doubt.
Grant me the wisdom to exceed my bounds.
Let my eyes always see through the dream fog of childhood,
so that every moment may be treasured.
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