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julian67 wrote:If some people running this board don't much like the members, don't like to put in the time, and don't want to participate, well what the hell are you doing here anyway?
I've wondered that sometimes myself but not very often as I simply visit less frequently and post less often. Maybe they're just sort of herding and directing poor mindless critters for the good of the critters?
Anyway, the forum has been on a steady downward trajectory for about two years time. The stuff that has been going on the last weeks would have shocked my numb two years ago. Now, I hardly raise an eyebrow. It says a lot.
As for the analogy, well, I guess a beef with the boss could get you fired and a beef with the administration could get you banned. A boss could always find another employee and a forum could always find other members. But eventually word gets around that the company is not a very attractive workplace and the boss finds it hard to attract competent people and the one that do work there are discontent. Maybe there is an analogy here too?
mojoman wrote:Anyway, the forum has been on a steady downward trajectory for about two years time. The stuff that has been going on the last weeks would have shocked my numb two years ago. Now, I hardly raise an eyebrow. It says a lot.
So. what happened two years ago, has that Nomko person any credit in it? I hardly doubt it: 2010-12-10 08:01, link: http://forums.debian.net/memberlist.php ... le&u=36268. he just a member for about 4 months? He really can't be held responsible for the downward trajectory of this forum. All the members here can be held responsible for it for the last 2 years, not just one person who joined recently.
And now i hope there's an admin who's that smart to close this thread otherwise this will turn into some fighting topic who's right or wrong.
Ron_Holland wrote:And now i hope there's an admin who's that smart to close this thread otherwise this will turn into some fighting topic who's right or wrong.
You're wrong.
There is no need for further discussion over this matter.
Q: Why is the Eunux kernel so bloated?
A: It was made in the image of its founder.
Ron_Holland wrote:So. what happened two years ago, has that Nomko person any credit in it? I hardly doubt it: 2010-12-10 08:01, link: http://forums.debian.net/memberlist.php ... le&u=36268. he just a member for about 4 months? He really can't be held responsible for the downward trajectory of this forum. All the members here can be held responsible for it for the last 2 years, not just one person who joined recently.
I never said Nomko was responsible for the state that the forum has turned into. And this for the simple reason that I don't believe it. Don't try to pin view on me that I don't have.
Ron_Holland wrote:So. what happened two years ago, has that Nomko person any credit in it? I hardly doubt it: 2010-12-10 08:01, link:
Nobody claimed that. mojoman didn't even mention nomko in the post you reference. Please don't misrepresent what people say just in order to take an antagonistic position. That's usually referred to as a strawman and, coming from someone here less than three days(!) who somehow has such strong opinions about the status of this board, it can easily be seen as trouble making aka trolling.
Wisdom from my inbox: "do not mock at your pottenocy"
julian67 wrote:Please don't misrepresent what people say just in order to take an antagonistic position. That's usually referred to as a strawman and, coming from someone here less than three days(!) who somehow has such strong opinions about the status of this board, it can easily be seen as trouble making aka trolling.
.....it can easily be seen as trouble making.....
Don't start it yourself, be a good example yourself
Ron_Holland wrote:So. what happened two years ago, has that Nomko person any credit in it? I hardly doubt it: 2010-12-10 08:01, link: http://forums.debian.net/memberlist.php ... le&u=36268. he just a member for about 4 months? He really can't be held responsible for the downward trajectory of this forum. All the members here can be held responsible for it for the last 2 years, not just one person who joined recently.
I never said Nomko was responsible for the state that the forum has turned into. And this for the simple reason that I don't believe it. Don't try to pin view on me that I don't have.
You're absolutely right reading your post again. But the the appearance was created that you have provided him.
No hard feeling i hope!
mojoman wrote:Anyway, the forum has been on a steady downward trajectory for about two years time. The stuff that has been going on the last weeks would have shocked my numb two years ago. Now, I hardly raise an eyebrow. It says a lot.
Remember Lavene and RickH? Those were the good, old days! Rick used to drive me insane. Looking back, I see how much knowledge he brought to the forum and how he kept the new members in line. Now I miss him. He gave Lavene fits, but she took it in stride. She never had to ban anyone or take "administrative action," because everyone respected her.
mojoman wrote:As for the analogy, well, I guess a beef with the boss could get you fired and a beef with the administration could get you banned. A boss could always find another employee and a forum could always find other members. But eventually word gets around that the company is not a very attractive workplace and the boss finds it hard to attract competent people and the one that do work there are discontent. Maybe there is an analogy here too?
I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet. .
Soul Singin' wrote:I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet.
And you shouldn't! There's always hope that it will go better, but that also depends on you and me and the other members. This kind of topics aren't very helpful to gain back the good atmosphere there was in the past.
So, forget what happened, don't look back and don't hold any grunge towards members, even too those whom you don't like (anymore). Don't discus any more about what happened but focus on the future of this forum which only can exist when everybody is willing to forget the past, be forgiving and be helpful to make the best out of this forum.
But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.
I also want to apologize to all of you if one of my postings looked a bit like i was trying to start an uproar here.
Soul Singin' wrote:Remember Lavene and RickH? Those were the good, old days! Rick used to drive me insane. Looking back, I see how much knowledge he brought to the forum and how he kept the new members in line. Now I miss him. He gave Lavene fits, but she took it in stride. She never had to ban anyone or take "administrative action," because everyone respected her.
Lavene was great. And while we're speaking of old staff, so was Harold. I can think of others too. But the style of moderation has changed. A lot of us, who have been members for more the three days, know this.
Soul Singin' wrote:I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet.
I too haven't given up on it. Christ, it's still my home page on iceweasel so I automatically log in every day. Still, I hardly post at all and don't browse as much because this is not as good a forum as it used to be.
julian67 wrote:Please don't misrepresent what people say just in order to take an antagonistic position. That's usually referred to as a strawman and, coming from someone here less than three days(!) who somehow has such strong opinions about the status of this board, it can easily be seen as trouble making aka trolling.
.....it can easily be seen as trouble making.....
Don't start it yourself, be a good example yourself
That's easy, and here is the example: I'm not attempting to misrepresent you, or to set up strawmen.
And when you get found out being disingenuous and deliberately provocative then posting a snide remark and a smiley doesn't justify or undo it.
@Soul Singin' I do agree that Lavene was a Grade A+ admin. What a different place this was when most of the admins and mods actually enjoyed the company of the members, participated on the board and had a sense of humour and proportion. But I never can join in with all this rickh nostalgia. He was often really unpleasant to new members just because they were new (as far as I could tell) so he was bound to occasionally squash someone who kind of asked for it, but he also antagonised and upset a lot of people for no good reason.
Wisdom from my inbox: "do not mock at your pottenocy"
Ron_Holland wrote:And now i hope there's an admin who's that smart to close this thread otherwise this will turn into some fighting topic who's right or wrong.
Here, we can take care of our selves, and we are smart enough to know what to do, although with the things which have happened recently, I think the mods and admins think the same as you...
This is Debian forum, not butnut... No reason to treat us like 4-year-olds.
As long as nomko, and just one other stupid person whose name I don't want to mention, don't come here, this discussion is safe...
Ron_Holland wrote:
But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.
First of all, stop telling people what they should or should not be discussing. Secondly this is not about one event or two events it's about the way things have evolved over a longer period of time, leading to a situation that has seen numerous longstanding members express a lot of disatisfaction or even quit participating altogether. This has taken place over a much longer than the two and a half days you've been around, so you are in no position to tell others what they ought to be discussing, and your posts show you don't even get this simple point.
Wisdom from my inbox: "do not mock at your pottenocy"
Ron_Holland wrote:
But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.
First of all, stop telling people what they should or should not be discussing. Secondly this is not about one event or two events it's about the way things have evolved over a longer period of time, leading to a situation that has seen numerous longstanding members express a lot of disatisfaction or even quit participating altogether. This has taken place over a much longer than the two and a half days you've been around, so you are in no position to tell others what they ought to be discussing, and your posts show you don't even get this simple point.
First of all, i wasn't telling anybody what to do.
Second of all, if you had read my whole posting, you should have understand that one sentence which, to my regret, you didn't.
julian67 wrote: But I never can join in with all this rickh nostalgia. He was often really unpleasant to new members just because they were new (as far as I could tell) so he was bound to occasionally squash someone who kind of asked for it, but he also antagonised and upset a lot of people for no good reason.
Including me!
What you say is true. I'll refrain from discussing him further. .
julian67 wrote:What a different place this was when most of the admins and mods actually enjoyed the company of the members, participated on the board and had a sense of humour and proportion.
I think this is half the heart of the matter (though some mods and admins still are very much part of the community and not just policing it). The other half of the heart of the matter is the change that was sought in the atmosphere of the forum, in order to make it more friendly towards newcomers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the energy spent on this has involved so much heavy-handed moderation, tut-tut-ing and policing of the member that it actually made the place more hostile and intolerant. Talk about unintended consequences.
edited for clarity
Last edited by mojoman on 2011-02-06 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
I agree. Somehow being more friendly to newcomers has been implemented as "let new members be as rude, antagonistic and provocative as they like (repeatedly). Meanwhile be harsh and intolerant towards the existing members." Great work. I wonder if anyone ever checked that new members even get better advice?
btw I wasn't criticising all the current mods or admins because several put an awful lot of time and goodwill into this place. But in any place like this the mood is ultimately set by the people who run it, who set policy and who are in the position to encourage some people/behaviour and sanction/disallow other people/behaviour. That isn't exactly working out. The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.
Wisdom from my inbox: "do not mock at your pottenocy"
julian67 wrote:The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.
One of the nobles stated he would request cynwulf's punishment be withdrawn, then apparently did not follow through. There's nothing wrong with expecting "staff" to do what they say they are going to do. There seems to be no accountability- and now some of the peasantry are discontent.
Edit: This isn't just about cynwulf. It's been brewing for a long time now, cynwulf's ban is just the latest episode.
Last edited by traveler on 2011-02-06 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
I wish for a conjugal visit and world peace. (Don't want to seem selfish.)
I agree. Somehow being more friendly to newcomers has been implemented as "let new members be as rude, antagonistic and provocative as they like (repeatedly). Meanwhile be harsh and intolerant towards the existing members."
The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.
Pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I also think there is a direct causal connection here. The increasing number of one-liners that lay down the law is hammering this point home with crystal clarity.
