Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

Code of conduct, suggestions, and information on forums.debian.net.
Message
Author
User avatar
AMLJ
Posts: 973
Joined: 2009-03-18 07:40
Location: Mierlo, Netherlands
Contact:

To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#1 Post by AMLJ »

Hello... I know you are all doing your best... But there are really some problems in what you are doing...
First of all, I ask you not to lock this thread, or ban me just because I want to discuss this matter.

Many experienced users are leaving, and some like me are just really upset... I assume you don't care about that very much, but please, if you care about the forums, could you please consider making a change? Even a little one...

Is it possible to have a change in the rules, or even a change in the staff? Maybe a vote?

As I mentioned, I'm really asking you guys not to lock this thread... Let's have a normal discussion, after a very long time...

It'd be also nice to see what other users think about this... Please don't say things which you know will cause in this thread being locked... Let's keep this one clean..
AMLJ**0-1-47

oOarthurOo
Posts: 544
Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
Location: Canada

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#2 Post by oOarthurOo »

I haven't noticed any problems, and the little I've looked into the recent nonsense just looks to me like a lot of emotion and anger over very little of substance.

That being said , it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the disciplinary stuff laid out more clearly, if for no other reason than transparancy. Currently Lavene's post on the Guidelines is all that exists, so maybe we could add a point thirteen under:
Summary
The following might get your post EDITED:
- Profanities
- Links to inappropriate websites

The following might get your post/ thread LOCKED
- Flaming/ personal attacks
- Obvious trolling
- Thread has wandered way off topic
- Cross posting

The following might get your post REMOVED
- Advertising/ Spamming
- Obviously racist/ sexist/ hateful content
- Obviously political/ religious content
- Obvious pornographic content
Something like:
13. Disciplinary Actions
- Administrators and Mods have the authority to take more severe actions in certain situations, from temporary account suspensions to permanent bans of users who violate the above rules.
- Users subject to disciplinary actions should try discuss the matter with the Administrator / Mod who dealt with the issue if they disagree with the decsion or feel that they are being treated unfairly.
- All permanent bans must be agreed to by two Administrators / Moderators. You cannot appeal a permanent ban, as by this point you will likely have had a number of opportunities to correct your forum behaviour.
Just off the top of the head, feel free to modify / improve / disregard.

Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.

eric1959
Posts: 1298
Joined: 2008-12-15 13:17
Location: Amsterdam

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#3 Post by eric1959 »

oOarthurOo wrote:.... which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
Image
Debian Bits And Snips
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330

User avatar
traveler
Posts: 942
Joined: 2010-06-09 22:07

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#4 Post by traveler »

Image
I wish for a conjugal visit and world peace. (Don't want to seem selfish.)

oOarthurOo
Posts: 544
Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
Location: Canada

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#5 Post by oOarthurOo »

For those of us who have disabled images/signatures on the forums, is there some message those [img] placeholders are meant to convey?

User avatar
AMLJ
Posts: 973
Joined: 2009-03-18 07:40
Location: Mierlo, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#6 Post by AMLJ »

I think that rule which says mods and admins can do whatever they want, means that there are really no other rules!

Would an admin or mod please answer too? I saw saul... reading this thread...
AMLJ**0-1-47

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#7 Post by MALsPa »

traveler wrote:Image
Yep.
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Maybe that's a good thing.

User avatar
traveler
Posts: 942
Joined: 2010-06-09 22:07

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#8 Post by traveler »

MALsPa wrote:
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Maybe that's a good thing.
Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.
I wish for a conjugal visit and world peace. (Don't want to seem selfish.)

User avatar
AMLJ
Posts: 973
Joined: 2009-03-18 07:40
Location: Mierlo, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#9 Post by AMLJ »

MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.
Um... Not sure if I understand you...
traveler wrote:Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.
I think if we keep going this way, we're soon going to see some bean system here too...
AMLJ**0-1-47

eric1959
Posts: 1298
Joined: 2008-12-15 13:17
Location: Amsterdam

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#10 Post by eric1959 »

MALsPa wrote:
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Maybe that's a good thing.
Why would that be a good thing...?
Debian Bits And Snips
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330

User avatar
Mr James
Posts: 1258
Joined: 2010-09-10 13:02

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#11 Post by Mr James »

traveler wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Maybe that's a good thing.
Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.
Followed by threads asking for advice on how to get over a girl...
asus S551L laptop :: debian stable :: dwm

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#12 Post by MALsPa »

Just seems to me that it's a few "experienced" users who are the problem, not the mods/admins. Just my opinion, and I know others here might strongly disagree. Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?

User avatar
mojoman
Posts: 598
Joined: 2006-10-15 18:43
Contact:

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#13 Post by mojoman »

MALsPa wrote:Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?
Had you asked me two years ago I would have said no.
http://www.debianuserforums.org
By the community. For the community.

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#14 Post by MALsPa »

mojoman wrote:
MALsPa wrote:Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?
Had you asked me two years ago I would have said no.
I was here two years ago, too. Didn't have any problems with the mods then, don't have any problems with them now.

User avatar
mojoman
Posts: 598
Joined: 2006-10-15 18:43
Contact:

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#15 Post by mojoman »

MALsPa wrote:I was here two years ago, too. Didn't have any problems with the mods then, don't have any problems with them now.
Yeah, well, a lot of people obviously do, who never had problems before. The style of moderation and the atmosphere of the forum have definitely changed during my years here. And if you ask me it's not for the better.
http://www.debianuserforums.org
By the community. For the community.

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#16 Post by MALsPa »

Maybe there's no problem with "the style of moderation" if you simply don't post things that make the mods feel they need to take action.

Aargh, why do I even let myself get sucked into these conversations? Again:
traveler wrote:Image
Have fun, folks.

User avatar
Mez
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Posts: 112
Joined: 2009-04-23 22:04

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#17 Post by Mez »

AMLJ wrote:Hello... I know you are all doing your best... But there are really some problems in what you are doing...
First of all, I ask you not to lock this thread, or ban me just because I want to discuss this matter.
Firstly, had there been something wrong with this thread, you'd have been warned first :)

Secondly, you've addressed this in a sensible manner, I see no reason to lock the thread as it currently stands
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving, and some like me are just really upset... I assume you don't care about that very much, but please, if you care about the forums, could you please consider making a change? Even a little one...
I can understand that some are upset, however, the amount of complaints from users regarding the atmosphere of the forums, before I recently stepped in (just under a week ago) - meant that something needed to be done about it. Hence the current process of change that's happening.
AMLJ wrote:Is it possible to have a change in the rules, or even a change in the staff? Maybe a vote?
Please feel free to suggest something for the rules. If you want to discuss specific staff changes, please contact admin@forums.debian.net - if they're generalised suggestions, please feel free to post them here, and the suggestion will be taken on board. A few staff changes are planned for the near future, to address what seems to be a lack of staff in timezones other than US timezones, as well as to boost the numbers of the (currently waning) Staff:User ratio.
AMLJ wrote:As I mentioned, I'm really asking you guys not to lock this thread... Let's have a normal discussion, after a very long time...

It'd be also nice to see what other users think about this... Please don't say things which you know will cause in this thread being locked... Let's keep this one clean..
Good sentiments, and I'm happy to have a frank and open discussion. Should it go the way of personal attacks, or flamewars, or trolling (or anything other than an adult, sensible conversation) - basically, if the thread gets out of hand, then of course, like any other thread, it'll be locked.

User avatar
Mez
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Posts: 112
Joined: 2009-04-23 22:04

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#18 Post by Mez »

oOarthurOo wrote:I haven't noticed any problems, and the little I've looked into the recent nonsense just looks to me like a lot of emotion and anger over very little of substance.

That being said , it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the disciplinary stuff laid out more clearly, if for no other reason than transparancy. Currently Lavene's post on the Guidelines is all that exists, so maybe we could add a point thirteen under:

<snip>

Something like:
13. Disciplinary Actions
- Administrators and Mods have the authority to take more severe actions in certain situations, from temporary account suspensions to permanent bans of users who violate the above rules.
- Users subject to disciplinary actions should try discuss the matter with the Administrator / Mod who dealt with the issue if they disagree with the decsion or feel that they are being treated unfairly.
- All permanent bans must be agreed to by two Administrators / Moderators. You cannot appeal a permanent ban, as by this point you will likely have had a number of opportunities to correct your forum behaviour.
First point sounds like a good addition, or at least a better clarification

I think the second point you have here might need a little further clarification. It's a good start, but I think there should be a little more to it (if they can't come to an agreement with the person, to contact admin@ , etc)

I'm a little wary over the third item. From my POV, Admins should be the last port of call for stuff like this. They shouldn't really have to step in. I feel that Admins should have the ability to perma-ban someone should they see the need to. I've only ever placed perma-bans on Ban Evaders alternative accounts, or Obvious spam bots. Admins should have proven themselves to be worthy of this ability, and the powers they posess. I agree however, that moderators should discuss permanent bans before they place them, and already actively encourage this. We have a staff area where bans that are placed are discussed (and currently, it actually seems to be all bans, rather than just Perma-bans, which while I don't feel the need to have this done, is a nice bonus, and shows that the Mod team are taking initiative). I'm also a little wary about the whole appealing bit. I'd say that a permanent ban can be appealed, but at that point, if a quorum of the team feel that it shouldn't be lifted, then that might be best. Also, as part of the "2 mods agreeing" bit - I'd allow the mods to place an "emergency action" ban of a month, pending discussion of a permanent ban, to be reviewed by another mod/admin, and removed/reduced if the agreement for a permanent ban didn't go through.
Just off the top of the head, feel free to modify / improve / disregard.

Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
I'm a little bit wary of that, as it could cause a fair amount of flaimbait. I'll have a think about it though.

User avatar
Mez
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Debian Developer, Forum Ninja
Posts: 112
Joined: 2009-04-23 22:04

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#19 Post by Mez »

traveler wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Maybe that's a good thing.
Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.
Not too sure about how the bean system works, but I'm thinking of a reputation/karma addon.

oOarthurOo
Posts: 544
Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
Location: Canada

Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc

#20 Post by oOarthurOo »

Mez wrote:
oOarthurOo wrote:13. Disciplinary Actions<snip>
First point sounds like a good addition, or at least a better clarification

I think the second point you have here might need a little further clarification. It's a good start, but I think there should be a little more to it (if they can't come to an agreement with the person, to contact admin@ , etc)

I'm a little wary over the third item. From my POV, Admins should be the last port of call for stuff like this. They shouldn't really have to step in. I feel that Admins should have the ability to perma-ban someone should they see the need to. I've only ever placed perma-bans on Ban Evaders alternative accounts, or Obvious spam bots. Admins should have proven themselves to be worthy of this ability, and the powers they posess. I agree however, that moderators should discuss permanent bans before they place them, and already actively encourage this. We have a staff area where bans that are placed are discussed (and currently, it actually seems to be all bans, rather than just Perma-bans, which while I don't feel the need to have this done, is a nice bonus, and shows that the Mod team are taking initiative). I'm also a little wary about the whole appealing bit. I'd say that a permanent ban can be appealed, but at that point, if a quorum of the team feel that it shouldn't be lifted, then that might be best. Also, as part of the "2 mods agreeing" bit - I'd allow the mods to place an "emergency action" ban of a month, pending discussion of a permanent ban, to be reviewed by another mod/admin, and removed/reduced if the agreement for a permanent ban didn't go through.
Those are useful comments that should probably be noted somewhere more prominent, so users understand that there is a process in place and that admin/mods don't just capriciously take actions without any consultations or review.
Mez wrote:
oOarthurOo wrote:Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
I'm a little bit wary of that, as it could cause a fair amount of flaimbait. I'll have a think about it though.
This one thread doesn't have to be the final say on the matter. Adding a subforum for appeals can be considered a *big* step. Clarifying forum guidelines and procedures is a *small* step. There's nothing wrong with making the smaller easier changes and seeing how it goes for a while, before deciding whether more significant changes are required.

Thanks for the comments.
Last edited by Mez on 2011-02-08 22:38, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Fixing quote nesting

Post Reply