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To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Hello... I know you are all doing your best... But there are really some problems in what you are doing...
First of all, I ask you not to lock this thread, or ban me just because I want to discuss this matter.
Many experienced users are leaving, and some like me are just really upset... I assume you don't care about that very much, but please, if you care about the forums, could you please consider making a change? Even a little one...
Is it possible to have a change in the rules, or even a change in the staff? Maybe a vote?
As I mentioned, I'm really asking you guys not to lock this thread... Let's have a normal discussion, after a very long time...
It'd be also nice to see what other users think about this... Please don't say things which you know will cause in this thread being locked... Let's keep this one clean..
First of all, I ask you not to lock this thread, or ban me just because I want to discuss this matter.
Many experienced users are leaving, and some like me are just really upset... I assume you don't care about that very much, but please, if you care about the forums, could you please consider making a change? Even a little one...
Is it possible to have a change in the rules, or even a change in the staff? Maybe a vote?
As I mentioned, I'm really asking you guys not to lock this thread... Let's have a normal discussion, after a very long time...
It'd be also nice to see what other users think about this... Please don't say things which you know will cause in this thread being locked... Let's keep this one clean..
AMLJ**0-1-47
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- Posts: 544
- Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
- Location: Canada
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
I haven't noticed any problems, and the little I've looked into the recent nonsense just looks to me like a lot of emotion and anger over very little of substance.
That being said , it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the disciplinary stuff laid out more clearly, if for no other reason than transparancy. Currently Lavene's post on the Guidelines is all that exists, so maybe we could add a point thirteen under:
Summary
Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
That being said , it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the disciplinary stuff laid out more clearly, if for no other reason than transparancy. Currently Lavene's post on the Guidelines is all that exists, so maybe we could add a point thirteen under:
Summary
Something like:The following might get your post EDITED:
- Profanities
- Links to inappropriate websites
The following might get your post/ thread LOCKED
- Flaming/ personal attacks
- Obvious trolling
- Thread has wandered way off topic
- Cross posting
The following might get your post REMOVED
- Advertising/ Spamming
- Obviously racist/ sexist/ hateful content
- Obviously political/ religious content
- Obvious pornographic content
Just off the top of the head, feel free to modify / improve / disregard.13. Disciplinary Actions
- Administrators and Mods have the authority to take more severe actions in certain situations, from temporary account suspensions to permanent bans of users who violate the above rules.
- Users subject to disciplinary actions should try discuss the matter with the Administrator / Mod who dealt with the issue if they disagree with the decsion or feel that they are being treated unfairly.
- All permanent bans must be agreed to by two Administrators / Moderators. You cannot appeal a permanent ban, as by this point you will likely have had a number of opportunities to correct your forum behaviour.
Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
oOarthurOo wrote:.... which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
Debian Bits And Snips
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
I wish for a conjugal visit and world peace. (Don't want to seem selfish.)
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- Posts: 544
- Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
- Location: Canada
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
For those of us who have disabled images/signatures on the forums, is there some message those [img] placeholders are meant to convey?
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
I think that rule which says mods and admins can do whatever they want, means that there are really no other rules!
Would an admin or mod please answer too? I saw saul... reading this thread...
Would an admin or mod please answer too? I saw saul... reading this thread...
AMLJ**0-1-47
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Yep.traveler wrote:
Maybe that's a good thing.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
I wish for a conjugal visit and world peace. (Don't want to seem selfish.)
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Um... Not sure if I understand you...MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.
I think if we keep going this way, we're soon going to see some bean system here too...traveler wrote:Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.
AMLJ**0-1-47
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Why would that be a good thing...?MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
Debian Bits And Snips
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330
Squeeze, Gnome, amd64, Intel Core i3-530, Geforce GT330
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Followed by threads asking for advice on how to get over a girl...traveler wrote:Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
asus S551L laptop :: debian stable :: dwm
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Just seems to me that it's a few "experienced" users who are the problem, not the mods/admins. Just my opinion, and I know others here might strongly disagree. Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Had you asked me two years ago I would have said no.MALsPa wrote:Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
I was here two years ago, too. Didn't have any problems with the mods then, don't have any problems with them now.mojoman wrote:Had you asked me two years ago I would have said no.MALsPa wrote:Wow, is it really all that difficult to get along with people and not run into issues with the mods/admins?
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Yeah, well, a lot of people obviously do, who never had problems before. The style of moderation and the atmosphere of the forum have definitely changed during my years here. And if you ask me it's not for the better.MALsPa wrote:I was here two years ago, too. Didn't have any problems with the mods then, don't have any problems with them now.
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Maybe there's no problem with "the style of moderation" if you simply don't post things that make the mods feel they need to take action.
Aargh, why do I even let myself get sucked into these conversations? Again:
Aargh, why do I even let myself get sucked into these conversations? Again:
Have fun, folks.traveler wrote:
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Firstly, had there been something wrong with this thread, you'd have been warned firstAMLJ wrote:Hello... I know you are all doing your best... But there are really some problems in what you are doing...
First of all, I ask you not to lock this thread, or ban me just because I want to discuss this matter.
Secondly, you've addressed this in a sensible manner, I see no reason to lock the thread as it currently stands
I can understand that some are upset, however, the amount of complaints from users regarding the atmosphere of the forums, before I recently stepped in (just under a week ago) - meant that something needed to be done about it. Hence the current process of change that's happening.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving, and some like me are just really upset... I assume you don't care about that very much, but please, if you care about the forums, could you please consider making a change? Even a little one...
Please feel free to suggest something for the rules. If you want to discuss specific staff changes, please contact admin@forums.debian.net - if they're generalised suggestions, please feel free to post them here, and the suggestion will be taken on board. A few staff changes are planned for the near future, to address what seems to be a lack of staff in timezones other than US timezones, as well as to boost the numbers of the (currently waning) Staff:User ratio.AMLJ wrote:Is it possible to have a change in the rules, or even a change in the staff? Maybe a vote?
Good sentiments, and I'm happy to have a frank and open discussion. Should it go the way of personal attacks, or flamewars, or trolling (or anything other than an adult, sensible conversation) - basically, if the thread gets out of hand, then of course, like any other thread, it'll be locked.AMLJ wrote:As I mentioned, I'm really asking you guys not to lock this thread... Let's have a normal discussion, after a very long time...
It'd be also nice to see what other users think about this... Please don't say things which you know will cause in this thread being locked... Let's keep this one clean..
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
First point sounds like a good addition, or at least a better clarificationoOarthurOo wrote:I haven't noticed any problems, and the little I've looked into the recent nonsense just looks to me like a lot of emotion and anger over very little of substance.
That being said , it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the disciplinary stuff laid out more clearly, if for no other reason than transparancy. Currently Lavene's post on the Guidelines is all that exists, so maybe we could add a point thirteen under:
<snip>
Something like:
13. Disciplinary Actions
- Administrators and Mods have the authority to take more severe actions in certain situations, from temporary account suspensions to permanent bans of users who violate the above rules.
- Users subject to disciplinary actions should try discuss the matter with the Administrator / Mod who dealt with the issue if they disagree with the decsion or feel that they are being treated unfairly.
- All permanent bans must be agreed to by two Administrators / Moderators. You cannot appeal a permanent ban, as by this point you will likely have had a number of opportunities to correct your forum behaviour.
I think the second point you have here might need a little further clarification. It's a good start, but I think there should be a little more to it (if they can't come to an agreement with the person, to contact admin@ , etc)
I'm a little wary over the third item. From my POV, Admins should be the last port of call for stuff like this. They shouldn't really have to step in. I feel that Admins should have the ability to perma-ban someone should they see the need to. I've only ever placed perma-bans on Ban Evaders alternative accounts, or Obvious spam bots. Admins should have proven themselves to be worthy of this ability, and the powers they posess. I agree however, that moderators should discuss permanent bans before they place them, and already actively encourage this. We have a staff area where bans that are placed are discussed (and currently, it actually seems to be all bans, rather than just Perma-bans, which while I don't feel the need to have this done, is a nice bonus, and shows that the Mod team are taking initiative). I'm also a little wary about the whole appealing bit. I'd say that a permanent ban can be appealed, but at that point, if a quorum of the team feel that it shouldn't be lifted, then that might be best. Also, as part of the "2 mods agreeing" bit - I'd allow the mods to place an "emergency action" ban of a month, pending discussion of a permanent ban, to be reviewed by another mod/admin, and removed/reduced if the agreement for a permanent ban didn't go through.
I'm a little bit wary of that, as it could cause a fair amount of flaimbait. I'll have a think about it though.Just off the top of the head, feel free to modify / improve / disregard.
Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Not too sure about how the bean system works, but I'm thinking of a reputation/karma addon.traveler wrote:Maybe we can get the bean system once all the gurus leave. That would be super.MALsPa wrote:Maybe that's a good thing.AMLJ wrote:Many experienced users are leaving
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- Posts: 544
- Joined: 2008-10-25 12:00
- Location: Canada
Re: To All Dear Mods, Admins, etc
Those are useful comments that should probably be noted somewhere more prominent, so users understand that there is a process in place and that admin/mods don't just capriciously take actions without any consultations or review.Mez wrote:First point sounds like a good addition, or at least a better clarificationoOarthurOo wrote:13. Disciplinary Actions<snip>
I think the second point you have here might need a little further clarification. It's a good start, but I think there should be a little more to it (if they can't come to an agreement with the person, to contact admin@ , etc)
I'm a little wary over the third item. From my POV, Admins should be the last port of call for stuff like this. They shouldn't really have to step in. I feel that Admins should have the ability to perma-ban someone should they see the need to. I've only ever placed perma-bans on Ban Evaders alternative accounts, or Obvious spam bots. Admins should have proven themselves to be worthy of this ability, and the powers they posess. I agree however, that moderators should discuss permanent bans before they place them, and already actively encourage this. We have a staff area where bans that are placed are discussed (and currently, it actually seems to be all bans, rather than just Perma-bans, which while I don't feel the need to have this done, is a nice bonus, and shows that the Mod team are taking initiative). I'm also a little wary about the whole appealing bit. I'd say that a permanent ban can be appealed, but at that point, if a quorum of the team feel that it shouldn't be lifted, then that might be best. Also, as part of the "2 mods agreeing" bit - I'd allow the mods to place an "emergency action" ban of a month, pending discussion of a permanent ban, to be reviewed by another mod/admin, and removed/reduced if the agreement for a permanent ban didn't go through.
This one thread doesn't have to be the final say on the matter. Adding a subforum for appeals can be considered a *big* step. Clarifying forum guidelines and procedures is a *small* step. There's nothing wrong with making the smaller easier changes and seeing how it goes for a while, before deciding whether more significant changes are required.Mez wrote:I'm a little bit wary of that, as it could cause a fair amount of flaimbait. I'll have a think about it though.oOarthurOo wrote:Oh and one thing I admire about the Ubuntuforums, is that they have discussions between users and mods in the open, which I think contributes to a sense of fairness and transparancy. PM's might not be the best approach to dealing with disciplinary actions, unless both the user and mod agree to use it. In any event, a subform dedicated to appeals decisions might be a good idea.
Thanks for the comments.
Last edited by Mez on 2011-02-08 22:38, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Fixing quote nesting
Reason: Fixing quote nesting