Your candor is appreciated.old_duffer wrote:As I'm addressing you directly, it's only fair to say who I am. This is cynwulf,
I made a simple assertion. I fail to see how it could be stated any more neutrally and the sentiment itself is not that distant from your own expectations for the treatment of the old duffers of this forum.old_duffer wrote:So once again you adopt the same lecturing and patronising stance?saulgoode wrote:While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.
Perhaps my stating it will be considered patronizing, but I should think this truism would be especially apparent to participants in the Free Software community, and particularly so for members of the Debian community. When Eben Moglen floated his idea for the Freedom Plug, it was Debian developers who jumped to the fore and said, "we appreciate all you've been doing over the years and we want to help"; the same sentiment expressed by Mr Moglen when he first decided to help Richard Stallman a quarter-century ago. Would you not be more quick to respond to a request for assistance from JohnDeere360 or mharrison than some just-joined-today newb?
And contrary to what some have put forth, there is deference paid to active contributors of this forum -- such is an inescapable part of human nature and arguably helps promote the forum's goals (and at a minimum does not interfere). For example, if a long-time member starts a new company, or purchases a new product, or publishes a book of Vogon poetry, it is not inappropriate for them to share this information with the rest of the community. Such would not be the case for new subscribers. There is also a bit greater leniency extended with regard to the usage of inappropriate language or the posting of unsuitable material.
But this deference only carries so far. Just because some consider you to be a rock star doesn't mean you're welcome to trash hotel rooms and throw televisions off the balcony; and just because you're a long-time contributor to the forum doesn't mean you're welcome to behave in a manner which interferes with its goals. If such behavior is permitted then the forum administrators would be failing to fulfill their responsibilities to all of the other members who participate in this forum because they agree with its goals and support their pursuit.
old_duffer wrote:Your first sentence is obviously aimed at the people who left and went to the other place.saulgoode wrote:I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.
No. Not at all. I have great respect for meandean, JohnDeere360, yourself, and others who have decided that this forum was not providing the atmosphere they desired and have sought to create a place which does so. I applaud your efforts and wish you success. While I am dubious of the long-term sustainability of your governance in its current form (at least how it was when I looked at it), but such things can usually be adjusted as problems arise. I am particularly impressed by your explicit and unequivocal statement of the forum's mission (I think you called it a "Constitution").
My comment was directed toward those who feel that the only way they can attain satisfaction is at the cost of the demise of this forum. This seems a rather vengeful attitude and generally inconsistent with the philosophy of the Free Software -- just because you fork a project to better suit your needs does not suggest any necessity that the original project be destroyed. Are you not disgusted when you hear some Ubuntard blogger suggesting there are too many distros and that Debian is unnecessary? I know I am. Nadir's statement smacks of the same sentiment.
While I generally respect nadir for his opinions and the way which he expresses them, I nonetheless object to his proposal about "burning down" this forum. I do not feel it is necessary, nor do I feel that doing so would benefit the community of Debian users at large. It is also entirely dismissive of those who disagree with your pessimistic assessment of this forum's current state of affairs. If you hadn't noticed, there are still people here going about the business of helping each other and sharing their experiences with Debian and Free Software.
I have an appointment to attend and will attempt responding to some of the other points in a future post.