Please get a handle on the spammers!

[eric1959]

nvm

Why did you remove your post...?

[traveler]

nvm

Why did you remove your post...?

Probably because the mystery poster realized it was a waste of his time to try to offer any solution to the current regime. After all, I doubt he's a Debian member- which makes his suggestions completely irrelevant anyway.

[nadir]

Sadly, there is no one with the time or ambition to take on the responsibility of making those changes at the server. The 'position' is open but the only individuals that would be considered must have Debian membership.

There is another viable option - offering the site to a consortium of members on the condition that they move it off the debian.net servers and domain. forum.debian.net can then function as a redirect to the new domain/server - or would that also be out of the question?

Personally I think that's a far better option than continuing with the current situation of the site being administered by people who clearly don't want to do it and have no real interest in doing it. This was a great site once and it's sad to see it's decline and decay being brought about by simple apathy and mismanagement. If you prefer to sit and watch it rot rather than do something about it - then you're only an admin in name and nothing more.

The current "red" admins here do not participate on this site and thus do not really care about it's future either way, this has been obvious to many of us for a long time now. While this might seem trivial to a debian developer or maintainer to those that use the forums it's a very different story - this site has been an invaluable resource to many. For many years it simply worked as it was...

The spam situation has only been out of control since about march when the admins decided to give up the goat on this place... the moderators and spam hunters have obviously been doing their best to delete the spam, but without active admins to actually sit down and delete the bot accounts and implement improved spam busting software (all entirely possible by the way) they are fighting a losing battle as the bots keep on returning. This must be soul destroying for the mods and spam hunters - it's clearly had an effect on them and an effect on the board and it's members as a whole.

It seems to me that we have an administration here who did their level best to drive out a certain faction of the user base back in February this year - once they had achieved this end they simply vanished off the radar... so getting rid of those people was worth all of the work, the bans, getting up there on the moral high ground posting lectures, etc? - but when it comes down to deleting spam and just "running a debian board" - there is no one left with neither the "time or ambition" for it...?

After the crap you have put people through here, you should be ashamed.

and yes, like traveler said: the pity is that it really doesn't matter what one says.
The best i can propose: burn it down to the ground, start fresh. What i see right now is a shame for the OS.

[linuxday]

Let us not fight and just play nice especially on Linux Day!

Yay for Linux Day!



Linux Day 2011 Teams

[saulgoode]

and yes, like traveler said: the pity is that it really doesn't matter what one says.

While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.

The best i can propose: burn it down to the ground, start fresh. What i see right now is a shame for the OS.

I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.

If you do not feel this forum is meeting its mandate then by all means offer suggestions on how the situation can be improved. But if the only proposition which you have to offer is "burn it down" then I would submit that you are being overly dismissive of those who feel that this forum offers, despite its imperfections, a worthwhile service to the Debian community.

This forum does not lay claim to exclusivity in providing such service -- indeed there are many alternatives available (including the forums at Linux Questions, Linux Forums, Debian Help, and the one in your signature). If you are not gaining satisfaction from your experience in participating in these forums, fine -- but why would you begrudge that option being made available to others who feel differently?

[old_duffer]

As I'm addressing you directly, it's only fair to say who I am. This is cynwulf,

While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.

So once again you adopt the same lecturing and patronising stance? Defending the indefensible and standing up for the people in red just because - instead of the users who actually made this place (not those that went to the other forums - all the users). How on earth can members here be judged on "actions" when they are powerless to do anything about these problems? Instead apply your logic and judgements to the people in power here, who could have done something, but instead sat on their hands. The average member can do nothing here to change the state of affairs. This has been made abundantly clear for years.

As members, all we can do is talk and that's it. Suggestions have been offered time and time again, the administration have ignored it all. In the end this place was turning into a circus, so many of us voted with our feet and left - presumably that's what the admin wanted to happen. I no longer have a problem with that - what I do have a problem with is that the site has since been left to rot under a pile of spam. So you got rid of the undesirables and the "problem", so where is the "bean system" and all of the other improvements? It seems to me that after solving problem A, certain people either went to rest on their laurels up in the ivory tower, or they simply ran out of ideas as to what do next. Where is Mez who was at the forefront of this crusade to modernise fdn? So far nothing has changed here and then a few days ago the almost mythical admin reappears (at least one of them anyway) with a typical condescending lecture but also with that vital bit of information: There is no one with the "time or ambition" for this place. The fact that someone can turn up after about 6 months of absence and think it's perfectly ok to do so shows the depth of the problem here.

I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.

Your first sentence is obviously aimed at the people who left and went to the other place - you and some others need to put aside your own prejudices and recognise that they are a drop in the ocean compared to the total sum of the people who actually left.

If you do not feel this forum is meeting its mandate then by all means offer suggestions on how the situation can be improved. But if the only proposition which you have to offer is "burn it down" then I would submit that you are being overly dismissive of those who do feel that this forum offers, despite its imperfections, a worthwhile service to the Debian community.

Suggestions have been offered. On the previous page BioTube suggested a very effective anti-spam counter-measure which is in use at the other forums. Your admin here won't try it out, because they have neither the "time or ambition" to do so... that doesn't bother you at all? When it comes down to it no one is willing to admit the real source of the spam problem here:

Spam posts were deleted by the mods and spam hunters. Spam user accounts were not deleted by the administration.

"donaldsmith" - spambot : http://forums.debian.net/memberlist.php ... le&u=42654

Registered in July - 59 posts all currently deleted. Account status: active.

Not an exception, but one of many.

Why were spam accounts not deleted by the administration? It comes down to "time and ambition" once again - roughly translated : the administration lost interest and no longer give a flying **** about the site. These people care so little about this board they won't even remove the bloody spam... This was made evident to most of us for the last several months of seeing spammers run riot with admins nowhere to be seen.

This forum does not lay claim to exclusivity in providing such service -- indeed there are many alternatives available (including the forums at Linux Questions, Linux Forums, Debian Help, and the one in your signature). If you are not gaining satisfaction from your experience in participating in these forums, fine -- but why would you begrudge that option being made available to others who feel differently?

In other words put up with the current situation or GTFO? Dispense with the aloof "lawyering" speak... you're interacting with your fellows in this community, you're not perched on a balcony addressing the plebs below.

[pleasevisitmyforum]

I will constantly whine like the little twat that I am.

A condescending word of advice: don't add spam bot in your little forum or it would look even more desolated than it already is. Your constant whining is worse than spam. Please get lost like you promised.

[nadir]

and yes, like traveler said: the pity is that it really doesn't matter what one says.

While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.

Aha.
Obviously the ones who have proposed what one could do, in this thread, are not in the position to make those changes.
Its only the so called staff who could do something.
Like said in the quote it was not much trouble to ban people, edit posts, remove posts and more, while adding a reliable spam protection is too much work.
You know very well what i and a few others have done, so don't tell me i would only "say" and not "do".
If you want to do, do. I don't hinder you to do something.

I also reported a lot of spam in the past, but after i realized that giving a row of spammers (they were listed by birthday) resulted in nothing, i gave up on it.
I am not the clown who reports and nothing happens.

The best i can propose: burn it down to the ground, start fresh. What i see right now is a shame for the OS.

I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.

If you do not feel this forum is meeting its mandate then by all means offer suggestions on how the situation can be improved. But if the only proposition which you have to offer is "burn it down" then I would submit that you are being overly dismissive of those who feel that this forum offers, despite its imperfections, a worthwhile service to the Debian community.

This forum does not lay claim to exclusivity in providing such service -- indeed there are many alternatives available (including the forums at Linux Questions, Linux Forums, Debian Help, and the one in your signature). If you are not gaining satisfaction from your experience in participating in these forums, fine -- but why would you begrudge that option being made available to others who feel differently?

I have offered suggestions, and more than just a few, and a lot of other people have offered suggestions too. They have been ignored, and the result can be observed daily, by going here: http://forums.debian.net/search.php?sea ... ive_topics
You think/say "it offers a worthwhile service", and i doubt that.
What you say, offer suggestions or be quiet, is similar to "love it or leave it" (In general i have left, so that far i am ok).
I agree that linuxquestions.org is a good alternative. This forum once has been much better than linuxquestions.org , but those times are gone.
antiX forum is another good one, while debianhelp is very silent (so not of much help right now).
There is also http://ask.debian.net/, which is close to something like a forum (for those who don't like mailing lists).

In case nothing changed i think you don't even use Debian, but Slackware, so i don't know how you want to decide if something is good for the Debian community. If you think it is of good quality right now all we can do is disagree about that.

I don't need to advance myself.
I have seen a good forum go south, and that makes me angry and sad.

PS: i did not know whose post i have saved and quoted after it was removed. It says exactly what i think, i had fear it would be removed, and that is why i saved it.

[old_duffer]

A condescending word of advice: don't add spam bot in your little forum or it would look even more desolated than it already is. Your constant whining is worse than spam. Please get lost like you promised.

Well I see the trolls have finally come out to play...

But no little fellow, you continue hiding behind your anonymity - what you do best. When you're ready to finally come out of the closet - someone may then start to actually give a **** about your opinions...

[pleasevisitmyforum]

A condescending word of advice: don't add spam bot in your little forum or it would look even more desolated than it already is. Your constant whining is worse than spam. Please get lost like you promised.

Well I see the trolls have finally come out to play...

But no little fellow, you continue hiding behind your anonymity - what you do best. When you're ready to finally come out of the closet - someone may then start to actually give a **** about your opinions...

No, you're the anonymous guy, little twat. Why don't you get a Debian membership and maybe we'll hear you out. Go stand in the corner.

[old_duffer]

As I said

When you're ready to finally come out of the closet.

Until then no one (least of all me) cares in the least what you post.

[pleasevisitmyforum]

Like I said, "Debian membership" or enjoy your anonymous opinions twat.

[nadir]

. But if the only proposition which you have to offer is "burn it down" then

and interestingly enough you completely ignore the "start fresh" part.
ash is a well known manure, and that is why i used the saying that i used.
If you prefer, translate it to "make some big changes".

Think a bit about why you simply can't see the "start fresh" (or whatever i, a user, will say) , and we are close to one of the main problems.

[traveler]

For all those concerned with the spam issue, I will again encourage you to stop reporting spam posts and force "the staff's" hand into action. Too many good solutions have been offered and the lame excuse that there is no one with the time or ambition to address the problem is ludicrous at best. Adding effective spam countermeasures to the forum isn't rocket science and the Mighty Team Mez (tm) should be able to figure it out without the assistance of a Debian Member.

[noitaintsaulgoode]

While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.

Well, it is hard to place higher regard on any action from the mods and admins since the lot of you have made it clear you don't give a flying expletive about this place anymore....why do you even bother to come here and post lectures if you aren't going to help turn this place around.

I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.

If you do not feel this forum is meeting its mandate then by all means offer suggestions on how the situation can be improved. But if the only proposition which you have to offer is "burn it down" then I would submit that you are being overly dismissive of those who feel that this forum offers, despite its imperfections, a worthwhile service to the Debian community.

This forum does not lay claim to exclusivity in providing such service -- indeed there are many alternatives available (including the forums at Linux Questions, Linux Forums, Debian Help, and the one in your signature). If you are not gaining satisfaction from your experience in participating in these forums, fine -- but why would you begrudge that option being made available to others who feel differently?

It's not about denying people this forum...it's about just simply starting over....the people "in charge" (and I use the term in charge very loosely) have given up in the eyes of the membership, so why not nuke it and try again.....maybe not in the sense of deleting the content....perhaps archive all that is here currently and then start fresh and force people to reregister if they wish to take part in the FDN revival....

But alas, all words are wasted since you don't give a crap and neither do the admins....Maybe someone who holds the venerable debian membership can come and save this place....if only the admins could find the time to give this place more than a seconds worth of thought to find someone who cares to run the place.

[saulgoode]

As I'm addressing you directly, it's only fair to say who I am. This is cynwulf,

Your candor is appreciated.

While I consider it far from pityable, it is a fact of life that people generally place higher regard on what a person does than what he says.

So once again you adopt the same lecturing and patronising stance?

I made a simple assertion. I fail to see how it could be stated any more neutrally and the sentiment itself is not that distant from your own expectations for the treatment of the old duffers of this forum.

Perhaps my stating it will be considered patronizing, but I should think this truism would be especially apparent to participants in the Free Software community, and particularly so for members of the Debian community. When Eben Moglen floated his idea for the Freedom Plug, it was Debian developers who jumped to the fore and said, "we appreciate all you've been doing over the years and we want to help"; the same sentiment expressed by Mr Moglen when he first decided to help Richard Stallman a quarter-century ago. Would you not be more quick to respond to a request for assistance from JohnDeere360 or mharrison than some just-joined-today newb?

And contrary to what some have put forth, there is deference paid to active contributors of this forum -- such is an inescapable part of human nature and arguably helps promote the forum's goals (and at a minimum does not interfere). For example, if a long-time member starts a new company, or purchases a new product, or publishes a book of Vogon poetry, it is not inappropriate for them to share this information with the rest of the community. Such would not be the case for new subscribers. There is also a bit greater leniency extended with regard to the usage of inappropriate language or the posting of unsuitable material.

But this deference only carries so far. Just because some consider you to be a rock star doesn't mean you're welcome to trash hotel rooms and throw televisions off the balcony; and just because you're a long-time contributor to the forum doesn't mean you're welcome to behave in a manner which interferes with its goals. If such behavior is permitted then the forum administrators would be failing to fulfill their responsibilities to all of the other members who participate in this forum because they agree with its goals and support their pursuit.

I do not understand this mentality that the only way one can advance himself comes at the cost of the diminution of others. This forum exists so that users of the Debian distribution of GNU/Linux software can share their experiences and support each other in achieving maximal benefit from using it.

Your first sentence is obviously aimed at the people who left and went to the other place.

No. Not at all. I have great respect for meandean, JohnDeere360, yourself, and others who have decided that this forum was not providing the atmosphere they desired and have sought to create a place which does so. I applaud your efforts and wish you success. While I am dubious of the long-term sustainability of your governance in its current form (at least how it was when I looked at it), but such things can usually be adjusted as problems arise. I am particularly impressed by your explicit and unequivocal statement of the forum's mission (I think you called it a "Constitution").

My comment was directed toward those who feel that the only way they can attain satisfaction is at the cost of the demise of this forum. This seems a rather vengeful attitude and generally inconsistent with the philosophy of the Free Software -- just because you fork a project to better suit your needs does not suggest any necessity that the original project be destroyed. Are you not disgusted when you hear some Ubuntard blogger suggesting there are too many distros and that Debian is unnecessary? I know I am. Nadir's statement smacks of the same sentiment.

While I generally respect nadir for his opinions and the way which he expresses them, I nonetheless object to his proposal about "burning down" this forum. I do not feel it is necessary, nor do I feel that doing so would benefit the community of Debian users at large. It is also entirely dismissive of those who disagree with your pessimistic assessment of this forum's current state of affairs. If you hadn't noticed, there are still people here going about the business of helping each other and sharing their experiences with Debian and Free Software.

I have an appointment to attend and will attempt responding to some of the other points in a future post.

[traveler]

My comment was directed toward those who feel that the only way they can attain satisfaction is at the cost of the demise of this forum. This seems a rather vengeful attitude and generally inconsistent with the philosophy of the Free Software -- just because you fork a project to better suit your needs does not suggest any necessity that the original project be destroyed. Are you not disgusted when you hear some Ubuntard blogger suggesting there are too many distros and that Debian is unnecessary? I know I am. Nadir's statement smacks of the same sentiment.

I can't speak for him, but I know nadir quite well and can assure you he doesn't seek the demise of this board. New leadership? Absolutely- in particular a new "emperor". It can be difficult to translate nadir-ese, but I didn't read anything into his post about the demise of this board being something he wanted just to benefit those of us who decided to secede. I took his post as a clear call for a rebirth and restoration of this forum. Simply put, something was lost in the translation. At any rate, I'm sure he'll clarify for himself what he meant.
PS- Anyone who reads Vogon poetry has way too much time on their hands.

[nadir]

I neither want to demise users nor the forum here (nor anyone, never)
I see why it might have sounded like that, but i already explained what i meant.
An eight page thread about spam, which results in "there is nothing one can do" seems to show that some changes are needed
(adding more spamhunters or mods, and some which are here, would be no biggie, as far i can tell, but that is really none of my business).

This way or that way i am sorry you understood me that way, cause i mainly posted the deleted post
(which might be worth spending a thought on), and added a short note (with a bad choice of words).

[eric1959]

What i see right now is a shame for the OS.

You're right about that.

[JohnDeere730]

Saulgood makes a valid point....maybe it would help everyone to just think of duf.org as a fork of fdn. We run our board as we see fit; and these folks here do the same.Certainly, if any of the staff at duf.org were perceived as not attending to business and ignoring requests that we do so, we'd be out in the street on our ass in the mud before we could blink, but that is obviously not going to happen there., so let be, I say. To each his own.

This whole thread is a bit like school kids arguing about public policy on the White House lawn; we may get noticed, but since we can't vote and are not members of the Elite, I think it a reasonable assumption that the Elite's give-a-crap-o-meter is pegged hard on the zero as far as we plebs are concerned. I personally am not bitter at the Elites, as they make a very fine Linux distro, the best, in fact, for which I am grateful. But they suck at administering a forum. Just my 2 cents....