New Greens and Purples?

[MALsPa]

In all fairness I think we forget that all of the staff here are volinteer and not paid site admins. Our admins, at least most of them have full-time jobs in addition to being developers for Debian. By the time one gets home from work often 10+ hours of ones day has been shot. Making time for family and still donating time to develop for Debian quite honestly doesn't leave a whole lot of time for much else I would imagine. This is the first time the forum has been able to add a few administrators that are not active DDs. I do hope you all will concider these things before you pass judgment on the admins that quite honestly saved this forum from extinction just a few short years ago. Yes, things have been rough at times but the forum is still here to be used. If not for Mez and the other admins that felt this forum still offered some value to our community and the Debian project this forum would not exist today as the original founders up and abandoned the forum when things became too rough for them. I haven't forgotten and you all shouldn't either.

The efforts of the Debian User Forums staff are appreciated. Good luck with getting this spam mess cleaned up.

[confuseling]

I'm not asking how to do a google search. I'm pointing out that the built in search is fundamentally broken. Having a button labelled 'search' which doesn't work is perverse, and must create many duplicate threads.

Isn't the problem with your example that your search term ("usb") is too short? If it is something else, perhaps you could elaborate? I have not noticed a failing of the search utility on this forum that isn't typical of every other PHPBB forum I've used.

That is the problem, yes, but many terms people are likely to be searching for are short, and many new users aren't going to realise it's a restriction of the board. Even if it just said "Search term is too short" it'd improve things.

Outside searches will often order things better as well, an example being

http://forums.debian.net/search.php?key ... esting+sid

vs

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=mixed+testi ... debian.net

[cynwulf]

The counter spam division are doing well against the louis vuitton hand bag wielding hordes... but can they keep it up forever...? The mindless bots do not tire and do not bore easily...

@confuseling: the phpBB built in search can be tweaked from the admincp but is quite crap and puts a huge load on the server. This is why the outside search method (search_term site:forums.debian.net) is often suggested.

[Absent Minded]

I am hoping we can come up with better solutions to the spam problem. It is being worked on. It definantly would be nice as well if an improved search feature could be implamented without advertizing or implying endorsment of a specific search engine, I know, more polotics... but that is something that we have to concider as well.

There was a comparison made earlier between the GPL software licence and forum polocies/rules. One shouldn't forget the GPL licence doesn't just protect the end user but also the original developer of the software as well. What was said would be much like someone coming into ones home or place of business and having no regard for the owners property or respect for them. Are any of you going to tollerate someone coming into your home or business, disrespecting you or your family? Are you going to allow someone to rearange your place or reformat your computers hard drive? I highly doubt it... It is like saying but you believe in free software so I can do what I want with your stuff in your home. The GPL protects both the developer and the end user. The GPL allows one to make a copy of the original code once you have aquired it' maybe one had to pay or maybe not but it doesn't allow one to claim rights to that software one doesn't have. There is always more to concider than just one side of things.

[nadir]

Oh?
Now that you say i got to agree.
Anyone who visits me has to do as i say and to say what i want.
Else i usually shoot them without further warning.
The sign at my door says: I am the law. (so they knew what they came for).
Sure. It is the well know hospitality to be found here, in northern Europe. I think it is the prototype of what one calls hospitality.

Strange enough no interesting people ever visit me. They all only say what i say myself. My life is a bit boring.

[Absent Minded]

Oh?
Now that you say i got to agree.
Anyone who visits me has to do as i say and to say what i want.
Else i usually shoot them without further warning.
The sign at my door says: I am the law. (so they knew what they came for).
Sure. It is the well know hospitality to be found here, in northern Europe. I think it is the prototype of what one calls hospitality.

Strange enough no interesting people ever visit me. They all only say what i say myself. My life is a bit boring.

I am sure even you have certian limits to what you will allow in your home. We use to be friends and yet because we have a differance of opinion on just a few things I get treated like I am now your bitter enimy. So yes, dispite your stance that everyone should get to do and say whatever they want, if it is not your way, it's the highway.

[llivv]

So yes, dispite your stance that everyone should get to do and say whatever they want, if it is not your way, it's the highway.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have taken that for granted for at least several years now. I just agree to disagree and try to ignore ( whenever the need rise-up )

[nadir]

Your observation of me is right.
I am not sarcastic or kidding, it _is_ right.
I can't say i am proud of it.

I wish i could say: " i am sorry, it won't happen again."
But that would be a lie.
As long people (moderators) will moderate, i will complain about that.
The moderators got buttons. I got words.
It has got nothing to do with you, AbsentMinded, but with the position you got.
You should know that i shout at any moderator, no matter who he is.


In Germany we say this: "You can't get out of your skin"
If i am being seen as an object, as someone you can push around (move his posts, close his threads, remove his threads, etc) i go straight nut (that would be my skin. And i will not be able to change that. Not sure if i even want it).

But i would not forbid anyone to say whatever he wants. For me it is the most basic human right of all.
I will go mad, i will shout at him, i will curse. But i will not say: he/she shall not be allowed to speak (anymore)
Perhaps i would do it if i could. We don't know. I can't, and of that i am glad.

Something must be seriously wrong with me. I can't see anyone else who is looking for the same thing (a place where people can speak free without any restrictions). People say: "it is not possible. It is chaos. " darknets are close, though.

-
Take care.
I seriously hope you are well.

[Absent Minded]

Your observation of me is right.
I am not sarcastic or kidding, it _is_ right.
I can't say i am proud of it.

I wish i could say: " i am sorry, it won't happen again."
But that would be a lie.
As long people (moderators) will moderate, i will complain about that.
The moderators got buttons. I got words.
It has got nothing to do with you, AbsentMinded, but with the position you got.
You should know that i shout at any moderator, no matter who he is.


In Germany we say this: "You can't get out of your skin"
If i am being seen as an object, as someone you can push around (move his posts, close his threads, remove his threads, etc) i go straight nut (that would be my skin. And i will not be able to change that. Not sure if i even want it).

But i would not forbid anyone to say whatever he wants. For me it is the most basic human right of all.
I will go mad, i will shout at him, i will curse. But i will not say: he/she shall not be allowed to speak (anymore)
Perhaps i would do it if i could. We don't know. I can't, and of that i am glad.

Something must be seriously wrong with me. I can't see anyone else who is looking for the same thing (a place where people can speak free without any restrictions). People say: "it is not possible. It is chaos. " darknets are close, though.

-
Take care.
I seriously hope you are well.

Nadir, thank you. Yes, I am well. I try to remember in all things that people are people and not just a number or a name. I try very hard to be fair with everyone.

[emariz]

purple-dasein owes me a drink:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=450935#p450935
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=451861#p451861

Even though the European Union is German nowadays, the Germans could not win here.

[dasein]

purple-dasein owes me a drink:

Take your pick:

[saulgoode]

As long people (moderators) will moderate, i will complain about that.
The moderators got buttons. I got words.

But i would not forbid anyone to say whatever he wants. For me it is the most basic human right of all.
I will go mad, i will shout at him, i will curse. But i will not say: he/she shall not be allowed to speak (anymore)
Perhaps i would do it if i could. We don't know. I can't, and of that i am glad.

Yet just about a week ago, you were complaining that the moderators weren't forbidding people from saying what they want. Sure those people were "spammers" and what they wanted to say was "buy my stuff" but still your complaint last week does not reconcile with your supposed unequivocal support of freedom of speech, nor with your complaint this week.

[nadir]

s/anyone/users
For me a user is not a spammer.
For you he is?
If yes: interesting. If no: lack of logic in your argument.
Besides that a spammer is usually a bot, hence he can't have human rights.

And before you start to discuss further: I would also exclude anti-semitism, racism, sexism and the like).
There you got a reason to assume that i don't know what i am talking about and just babble without any reason
(anything is not anything, but anything minus a bit). The argument with spammers, otho, is weak.

You know well that this forum was without any moderation for more than just a few weeks, last year (all mods and admins not present, spamhunters doing the spamhunting). It worked well.

The absolute minimum of respect would be to inform a user that his post has been removed. Also to inform his friends that he has been banned.
Either one wants idiots as users, or one has to think of them as people who are also able to think (and who do things for a reason. Perhaps it is the mod who can't understand the reason, in a certain case? Or does one get an assert(true) with the new color too?).

The new stuff will soon find all the buttons (just like any other staff uses buttons for the one reason: to figure out how they work. Impossible to install phpbb locally and test it there? Seems so).
Give humans buttons. They will use them:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250258/
Then they will give you damn got reasons why they have to use them. With a split tongue, or curse.

To hesitate before one "does" is not the worst thing which could happen to this world. Step back and think: it is really necessary? Does it really do enough harm to give a reason to edit/remove/move/ban ?
(If i would be banned here, there would be more than enough good reasons. I wouldn't complain )

[saulgoode]

s/anyone/users
For me a user is not a spammer.

Again with the unequivocal assertions. What distinguishes between a user and a spammer? It can't be the number of posts -- because I've processed at least a dozen spammers that have had more than 200 posts, and we have a Spam Hunter with only 20.

Is it the quality of the posts? If so, then by whose judgment? And what standard? If you went to a forum dedicated to photos of swimsuit-clad models toting assault rifles and submitted a post about how to install GIMP or setup a passwordless ssh server, your post would most likely be considered spam and be removed. Why do you think that is?

Let me tell you. Your post would be removed because it is inappropriate to that forum. That is to say, it interferes with the reason that forum exists. The people who created that forum did so for a reason; they had a goal. When someone agrees with that goal, they may decide to volunteer or otherwise contribute to that forum. It is not fair to any of those contributors if the goal is later changed to something different. Whether the change is owing to the founders altering course or to outsiders interfering with the pursuit of that goal it is still unfair, and disrespectful to everybody who contributes to the forum.

That is why forums have moderation: to be fair to everybody who contributes premised on the goals that the forum is pursuing. If a particular comment is deemed "inappropriate" to the forum, this is not a judgment about the quality of the post, nor is it a value judgment of the user making the post. It is not a matter of the moderator being impressed by or agreeing with the content of the post; it is a largely objective analysis of whether that post supports, interferes with, or is basically neutral towards the common goal upon which the community has decided to pursue.

Is there a difference between contributing members and spambots? Of course. Is there a distinction between a spambot posting a Viagra ad and a longtime member posting about whether Apollo11 landed on the moon? Yes there is. But the criteria used to moderate this forum is not whether the staff likes or dislikes a person, agrees or disagrees with an opinion. It is about whether the post is in furtherance of, or interferes with, the goal of the forum.

[llivv]

(If i would be banned here, there would be more than enough good reasons. I wouldn't complain )

I might, knowing well how many others would not like it, agree with it.
As was seen by anyone reading in Off topic recently, when a poster knows he/she is getting close enough to a certain action being taken
by forum moderation, chances are, well that moderation will happen.
I would have liked to respond to post in the thread "Give Up" linked to yesterday. Saying it is same here in US and is probably the same everywhere in the world, only exceptions to the rule these days. But the thread is not locked yet, and I don't want to be the one to get it locked. And I wanted also to respond to the graphic in the thread that linked to the "give up" thread. But it would have been sexists and gotten more people to ignore my posts. And I'm probably already on enough ignore lists already,
Is Nadir an opinionated sob?
In my many years of rise up -get shot down again, I only wish I had the courage to write free.
Edit: Instead a muddle through One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and wonder to myself what that life feels like.

[cynwulf]

Again with the unequivocal assertions. What distinguishes between a user and a spammer? It can't be the number of posts -- because I've processed at least a dozen spammers that have had more than 200 posts, and we have a Spam Hunter with only 20.

A spammer is only allowed to accrue a post count of 200 if someone only has the power to delete the posts and not the account... Obvious no? That was in fact the shambolic situation for about two years while the administration were nowhere to be found.

As to the difference between a user and a spammer - and let us even assume that all spammers are human (some are) for the sake of argument - is that a user is here because they have at least a passing interest in the subject matter, with an intention to remain and post - where a spammer is here to advertise a product for free and leave immediately...

Let me tell you. Your post would be removed because it is inappropriate to that forum[etc]

I don't really have an opinion on what is off topic and what is on topic, except that it's important not to get too anal about it, as there is often quite a fine line. Yes someone starting a thread about WW1 or the US election could be deemed as making an inappropriate thread, but a discussion about free software licences which starts to get political is not really the same thing - as the intent is entirely different.

That is why forums have moderation: to be fair to everybody who contributes premised on the goals that the forum is pursuing[etc]

I for one can accept that, but you're inferring that all moderation is automatically fair and even handed and that no one is needed to police the police... in the ideal world perhaps... I disagree, and have seen corrupt and biased forum staff too many times to think otherwise. I've also seen bad decisions which have had serious consequences, caused resentment and a rift in the relations between staff and members leading to the classic "them and us" situation.

Personally I don't think any forum is about staff - it's all about the members and FDN is no different, the members made this place and heavy handed inflexible moderation will break it... this is not a kids games forum, so the "classic" overbearing moderator style will not yield the best results here. There needs to be flexibility on language and what is seen as offtopic, etc. The cotton wool wrapped "stepford" like environment of the 'buntard forums, is not welcome here and has traditionally been rejected. Compared to the stifling authoritative boards elsewhere, this place was always a welcome relief - this is what many members do not want to see compromised. There is a valid reason why this place had so many 'buntu sucks' threads - it was one of the few GNU/Linux communities on the web where you could get away with it... when you have relaxed rules, you have to take the rough with the smooth a pity some people can't see that and instinctively strive for stricter moderation.

Moderation is also mostly opinion. Yes there are rules, but they're not all encompassing rules - discretion plays a big part and that's where "what I find offensive" comes in. Moderator A may not find X offensive and lets it go, Moderator B does and locks it. This introduces a problem - judgement failed, but who's judgement? If there was even the smallest doubt, then why was it locked, etc, etc, etc...?

That said I do believe there are two notable exceptions - namely politics and religion. Discussion of those two invariably leads to flame wars, infighting and divisions. People who previously connected well via the subject matter often cease to connect on discovering that they hail from different ends of the political spectrum - in some cases this manifests itself in outright hatred and intolerance. So personally I don't have a problem with those being off limits - within reason.

[nadir]

s/anyone/users
For me a user is not a spammer.

Again with the unequivocal assertions. What distinguishes between a user and a spammer? It can't be the number of posts -- because I've processed at least a dozen spammers that have had more than 200 posts, and we have a Spam Hunter with only 20.

Is it the quality of the posts? If so, then by whose judgment? And what standard? If you went to a forum dedicated to photos of swimsuit-clad models toting assault rifles and submitted a post about how to install GIMP or setup a passwordless ssh server, your post would most likely be considered spam and be removed. Why do you think that is?

Let me tell you. Your post would be removed because it is inappropriate to that forum. That is to say, it interferes with the reason that forum exists. The people who created that forum did so for a reason; they had a goal. When someone agrees with that goal, they may decide to volunteer or otherwise contribute to that forum. It is not fair to any of those contributors if the goal is later changed to something different. Whether the change is owing to the founders altering course or to outsiders interfering with the pursuit of that goal it is still unfair, and disrespectful to everybody who contributes to the forum.

That is why forums have moderation: to be fair to everybody who contributes premised on the goals that the forum is pursuing. If a particular comment is deemed "inappropriate" to the forum, this is not a judgment about the quality of the post, nor is it a value judgment of the user making the post. It is not a matter of the moderator being impressed by or agreeing with the content of the post; it is a largely objective analysis of whether that post supports, interferes with, or is basically neutral towards the common goal upon which the community has decided to pursue.

Is there a difference between contributing members and spambots? Of course. Is there a distinction between a spambot posting a Viagra ad and a longtime member posting about whether Apollo11 landed on the moon? Yes there is. But the criteria used to moderate this forum is not whether the staff likes or dislikes a person, agrees or disagrees with an opinion. It is about whether the post is in furtherance of, or interferes with, the goal of the forum.

You said i would ask for contradicting things:
On the one hand for free speech for everyone, on the other hand for spam to be removed.
I said that for me a spammer is not a user and a user is not a spammer.
(I added that i would also exclude antisemitims, racism and sexism from free speech).
There is nothing unequivocal about that.
The rest of what you write is beyond me
(, but it describes the way that it is, in linux forums. I called the reasoning a split tongue, and i still do).
All of that might be this way or that way: That any sane people can and will distinguish between a user and a spammer is still valid.

Do you really want to discuss with me if a spammer is a user too?

That is why forums have moderation: to be fair to everybody who contributes premised on the goals that the forum is pursuing.

I am a fan of rules. Give us rules, and make them valid for anyone. "We do whatever we consider right, be it due to the rules or to any other reason" is not a rule.
This, the rules are valid for anyone and the ones in power too, is called a "state under the rule of law". While it is part of any democracy, it is by far the more revolutionary change in human history than it's parent (democracy itself).

You completely ignored that the forum worked well without any moderation too. (AM was not here, you have given up moderation and craigevil showed up every other week only).
Speak with me: the world will not fall apart.

Iow: Do whatever you, the staff, consider right. You will get the users who will feel happy with that.

The world needs a change, and for that many people at many places work pretty hard. And many, many from free software are involved, to enable free speech (think of tor, freedombox, free network foundation, riseup.net, diaspora, identi.ca, i2p, gpg, gnunet, ... Do they ask people to use free speech to repeat what they allow them to? Or do they say: "Here are the tools, now make use of free speech and get it sorted" ? )
Not here? The ancient regime in full power? Fine with me. But don't ask me to give a big round applause.
I am completely insane: I ask for a possibility to speak free in a forum ( made of free software it is) about Debian, a Gnu/Linux distribution, which has the main purpose to give a free operating system, and includes a social contract which has got several political inclusions (one being to avoid discrimination, another to not hide any problems ). How on earth could i come to that weird conclusion? In which world does that make any sense? Speek free about free software ... how odd.

"We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful."
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System

It might end in chaos. It might end in creativity too. One can not know in advance.

EOF