Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Solved - Desktop selection during installation

Ask for help with issues regarding the Installations of the Debian O/S.
Message
Author
classe
Posts: 22
Joined: 2018-11-20 05:58

Solved - Desktop selection during installation

#1 Post by classe »

Hi,

What's the difference between "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" ?

During my installation of Debian 9.6, I selected the option of "GNOME" on the screen of "Software selection", and then, after finished the installation, I can login the GNOME environment;

But, if I selected "Debian desktop environment" instead of "GNOME", the login environment was still GNOME !

So, what's the difference between "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" ?
or "Debian desktop environment" = "GNOME" ?

If they were the same, why "Debian desktop environment" ?

Image

Thanks
Last edited by classe on 2018-12-16 01:55, edited 1 time in total.

Palmstroem
Posts: 19
Joined: 2017-08-12 12:36

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#2 Post by Palmstroem »

The answer is written in the documentation:
By default, debian-installer installs the Gnome desktop environment. It is possible to interactively select a different desktop environment during the installation. It is also possible to install multiple desktops, but some combinations of desktop may not be co-installable.
So if you select the Debian desktop environment only, then GNOME will be installed by default. If you tick GNOME additionally, same situation. If you don't select Debian desktop environment at all, then you won't have a graphical desktop.

classe
Posts: 22
Joined: 2018-11-20 05:58

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#3 Post by classe »

Thanks ,
I had read the document before posting this topic, and I thought that maybe there is sth wrong;

The truth is that, I choose "GNOME" only, NOT tick the "Debian desktop environment" , after the installation, I got a gnome desktop environment;

That is to say that there are three methods for user to install a gnome desktop environment:
1--- tick "GNOME" only;
2--- tick "Debian desktop environment" only;
3--- tick both "GNOME" and "Debian desktop environment"

It's an odd result.
Why? I think there is no need to make a "Debian desktop environment" option for users.



Thanks

Palmstroem
Posts: 19
Joined: 2017-08-12 12:36

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#4 Post by Palmstroem »

OK, from a purist's point of view the check box for "Debian desktop environment" is superfluous then - logically. However, on the other hand I think that whenever you choose one or more of the sub-options GNOME ... LXDE then of course you obviously vote to have a Debian desktop environment, don't you agree? Perhaps the best solution would be that the installer automatically sets the check box for "Debian desktop environment" if one or more of the sub-options were checked.
You could drop a note to the developers.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#5 Post by golinux »

Some new users might not be aware of the various DEs and wouldn't know which one to choose. It would probably be better to word it "Default Debian desktop environment" but there might be space constraints to doing so.
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
debiman
Posts: 3063
Joined: 2013-03-12 07:18

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#6 Post by debiman »

^ this.
it's good to have a clear default.
btw, gnome hasn't always been the default debian desktop environment.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#7 Post by golinux »

debiman wrote:btw, gnome hasn't always been the default debian desktop environment.
And almost wasn't for Jessie. Xfce was a heavy favorite until . . . the whole systemd/gnome lock in. Would love to have been a fly on the wall behind those closed doors.
May the FORK be with you!

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#8 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

golinux wrote:Xfce was a heavy favorite until . . . the whole systemd/gnome lock in. Would love to have been a fly on the wall behind those closed doors.
Debian is very open:

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktop/R ... ion/Jessie

^ That shows why GNOME was chosen (and I agree with the decision).

XFCE lost because it doesn't support accessibility as well as GNOME and because systemd integration is poor.

More here: https://salsa.debian.org/installer-team ... bb1d9ee6d7
deadbang

milomak
Posts: 2168
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#9 Post by milomak »

it seems simple to me:
- there is a default debian de - from reading here it seems to be gnome
- there is the possibility of downloading all the dvds. in which case you have a choice of many de. at this point you may not know which one is the default. so both default and gnome are shown as a choice.

edit - what would be more interesting is what happens say you install from the cinnamon install iso. i assume of course that both install cinnamon.
Desktop: A320M-A PRO MAX, AMD Ryzen 5 3600, GALAX GeForce RTX™ 2060 Super EX (1-Click OC) - Sid, Win10, Arch Linux, Gentoo, Solus
Laptop: hp 250 G8 i3 11th Gen - Sid
Kodi: AMD Athlon 5150 APU w/Radeon HD 8400 - Sid

classe
Posts: 22
Joined: 2018-11-20 05:58

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#10 Post by classe »

If is was designed for beginners only, or just for showing Debian's DEFALULT de,I think that maybe we can redesign the multi-selection items an so on;

For beginners, the best way to experience Debian is to install and use it on a computer; so, the first step is to install Debian; and, there shouldn't have anything that would do make beginners confused I think.

I think I can try to do this redesign work, maybe;

If I got a better result,I will drop it to the developers.

User avatar
debiman
Posts: 3063
Joined: 2013-03-12 07:18

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#11 Post by debiman »

classe wrote:For beginners, the best way to experience Debian is to install and use it on a computer; so, the first step is to install Debian; and, there shouldn't have anything that would do make beginners confused I think.
i resent the notion of viewing all "beginners" as essentially illiterate and confused.
unless you mean beginners that are actually beginners in life, haven't yet learned reading or writing (or ticking boxes).

even if i have never used linux before, i can still understand a menu that tells me
  • the first choice is labeled "Deafult". it is also the first choice. afair it is also already preselected.
  • other choices come below that, and are NOT "Default"
that's sufficiently clear, beginner or not.
no need to change anything (and seriously, please don't waste debian maintainers/developers time with that).

sheesh.

classe
Posts: 22
Joined: 2018-11-20 05:58

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#12 Post by classe »

debiman wrote: [*]the first choice is labeled "Deafult". it is also the first choice. afair it is also already preselected.
sheesh.
[/quote]

Are you sure?

But, where is the "Default” lable?

milomak
Posts: 2168
Joined: 2009-06-09 22:20
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#13 Post by milomak »

classe wrote:
debiman wrote: [*]the first choice is labeled "Deafult". it is also the first choice. afair it is also already preselected.
sheesh.
Are you sure?

But, where is the "Default” lable?
Image

seems perfectly fine to me. go with default(which aslo happens to be gnome) or specifically choose one you want (which may also be gnome if you don't know what the default is)
Desktop: A320M-A PRO MAX, AMD Ryzen 5 3600, GALAX GeForce RTX™ 2060 Super EX (1-Click OC) - Sid, Win10, Arch Linux, Gentoo, Solus
Laptop: hp 250 G8 i3 11th Gen - Sid
Kodi: AMD Athlon 5150 APU w/Radeon HD 8400 - Sid

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#14 Post by golinux »

"standard system utilities" won't install a DE afaik. It will only create an environment that will allow you to install DE components you want after installation is complete. But it's been a long time since I've used the d-i. refractainstaller live disks are much easier and faster.
May the FORK be with you!

classe
Posts: 22
Joined: 2018-11-20 05:58

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#15 Post by classe »

Let's have a look that what happened during desktop environment selection for a newbie to debian:

To the newbie:
1. I know kde, I know gnome, and I know of xfce even, but, I do not know of "Debian desktop environment"; it never appears in the other linux distribution;
So, what is "Debian desktop environment"? Is that a new kind of DE designed by Debian?

2. After the installation of debian by selecting "Debian desktop environment" only, a GNOME DE appeared;
What? I did not select GNOME! what I had selected is "Debian desktop environment"! Did I remember it wrong? memory loss maybe~

3. When reinstall debian, or another installation in virtual machine, I do select "Debian desktop environment" only, but, still I got a GNOME desktop!
Why? Did they forget something that there already is a GNOME option?

4. During the 3rd installation of debian, maybe 4th, on the desktop selection screen, I got caught up in thinking:
Maybe Debian love GNOME; they do not like the other DEs, so, they make two GNOME options on the selection screen: one is GNOME, and the other is "Debian desktop environment"; Debian want all people to use GNOME, maybe~

5. Oh, if none of the above, emmm, maybe they forgot something or they just made a mistake~ Oh, low-quality software~

-----------------------
I hope that anyone who use debian would love debian, I do not want anyone to misunderstand Debian!

It's not just me who are confused by the DE selection screen.

I dropped this topic because I think that maybe there is something that i neglected, I want to know why; Thanks all of you to explain to me what you think;

But, none of the explanntion above can make me clear of it. I don't know how to explain it to a newbie when I recommend him to use Debian, it doesn't feel reasonable.

Do all of you think that the DE selection during debian installation is OK?

User avatar
GarryRicketson
Posts: 5644
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#16 Post by GarryRicketson »

Well, I don't see what is so confusing, but if these "newbies" would just read some of the Debian documentation before they start installing, they would would have a better idea about what they are doing, I know that is a really difficult concept, and it might be confusing to some, I mean the concept, idea, of actually reading some documentation before making the decision to install Debian.
For example, if one does not know this:
So, what is "Debian desktop environment"? Is that a new kind of DE designed by Debian?
What is the Debian Desktop Environment
The first hit : https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktopHowTo
Select a Desktop Environment

To select the desktop environment that the debian-installer installs, enter "Advanced options" on the boot screen and scroll down to "Alternative desktop environments". Otherwise, debian-installer will choose GNOME.
There also is : https://wiki.debian.org/DesktopEnvironment

And even though some people claim this forum never shows in any searches:
Debian User Forums • View topic - Installing Jessie - what is ...
forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=125037

Anonymous View

2 Oct 2015 ... Debian desktop environment (already ticked by default) ... I do not understand what is Debian desktop environment in the above context.
by class » I do not want anyone to misunderstand Debian!
If your concern really is to help someone understand Debian, maybe suggest to them to read some of the documentation, before deciding which version they install, ...That is what the documentation was written for.

There is no excuse for a so called "newbie" to remain ignorant, if a newbie remains ignorant it is because they have chosen to be lazy and not read anything ahead of time.
by class »Do all of you think that the DE selection during debian installation is OK?
I can't speak for every body, but I think it is OK, I never had any problem with it,... but then I read some of the documentation before I started blindly installing it.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#17 Post by golinux »

classe wrote:Maybe Debian love GNOME; they do not like the other DEs, so, they make two GNOME options on the selection screen: one is GNOME, and the other is "Debian desktop environment"; Debian want all people to use GNOME, maybe~
They do. They also love systemd. Please read this to understand where Gnome et al are are headed.
May the FORK be with you!

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#18 Post by MALsPa »

The OP did read the documentation, and said so, although not in the first post. If everything was all so clear then maybe this topic wouldn't keep coming up. It doesn't make much sense to have both the "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" selections when both give the user the same thing. That's the main source of the confusion. The first one should be removed and the second one could be something like "GNOME (default)".

Too bad that some think that clearing all this up would be a waste of time for the devs. Not clearing it up leads to a waste of time for users, and a waste of time for forum members.

User avatar
debiman
Posts: 3063
Joined: 2013-03-12 07:18

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#19 Post by debiman »

^ i don't see it that way.
fwiw, i just went through the motions of installing debian in a vm, trying to stick to default options as much as possible with the graphical install (the default install method), and evtl. got to this screen:
Image
i didn't change anything, it was all preselected and highlighted like this.
it's also exactly the same as OP posted.
this is clear enough:
the pre-selected default means: "I'm not sure; I'll go with what the installer recommends".
but there are still choices. the choices also include gnome, and the default isn't marked being the same as gnome. granted, this could have been designed better, but i don't see it as a problem.
saying this is confusing, is the same as saying "Let's not give them any choices at all. It's really the best solution for everybody involved." sound familiar?

it's always confusing.

yes, problems like this keep cropping up.
they will continue to do so as long as you give people choices, or don't put a safety belt on all sorts of configuration options.
people overestimate their abilities and end up borking their systems.
it's the freedom of gnu/linux.

MALsPa
Posts: 678
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Desktop selection during installation

#20 Post by MALsPa »

Some comments I found (see: https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... -installer):
If no specific desktop environment is selected, but the “Debian desktop environment” is, the default which ends up installed is determined by tasksel: on i386 and amd64, it’s GNOME, on other architectures, it’s XFCE.
And the second reply there:
The Debian-desktop-environment option appears to add distro branding [...]
That is not "official" documentation, of course. The installation manual is "official" documentation, but I don't see where that info is provided in the installation manual. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, or maybe my reading comprehension is failing me in my old age.


The OP asked:
classe wrote:What's the difference between "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" ?
I don't think there's any difference. If somebody sees the answer to that question in the installation manual, or even in the wiki, please feel free to point it out.

Back when I was trying to get some clarification on questions like these, the way I finally ended up trying to get to the bottom of it was by trial-and-error, doing multiple installations, selecting different options to see what would happen. That worked ok for me, but that is not the ideal approach, of course.

Post Reply