Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Debian jessie or stretch

Ask for help with issues regarding the Installations of the Debian O/S.
Post Reply
Message
Author
jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Debian jessie or stretch

#1 Post by jyo »

Hello, new to the forum and pleased to have found somwhere that I might find a little comms on debian and linux; I am very interested by both :)

Have been running linux ubuntu for a few years, I now and feel ready to move on to something else. Having just installed Debien 8.6 Jessie on my desktop, and I am really quite taken with it, very much enjoying the gnome ui experience as a pretty backdrop for the all essential terminal and vim. My work computer is a Lenovo x260 and I would now really like to install the same os on that. However the skylake throttling and battery usage are very important as it is a mobile machine chosen for its battery life. I have found a few articles that suggest that I will be fine running Debian on this however I am a little unsure as to which version and how best to install it; Is the following advice relevant or good? ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... l_new_x60/

I see here that things look good according to these tests:

https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebia ... 60/stretch

But that this is not using the Jessie 8.6 version.

I would normally just go ahead and try an install, excepting that I need this machine functional for work, which is why I am asking you kind folk here before making a move. I notice that the wifi that is often mentioned in the debian packages is intel, my machine has Broadcom Corporation BCM4356 Wireless; is this likely to cause any problems?

How would you recommend that I proceed?

Thank you for your consideration.
Last edited by jyo on 2016-12-19 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#2 Post by dasein »

First, you need to read up on Debian's release model and Debian backports for this answer to make any sense, so start here:

https://www.debian.org/releases/
https://wiki.debian.org/Backports

According to the Wiki, Jessie does seem to be installable on that machine:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebia ... 250/Jessie

So, according to the Wiki, you can install Jessie on that machine, but it will require some extra fiddling and configuration because there is limited support for the GPU and the WiFi chip. The fix for the GPU issues is to use a kernel from backports. WiFi on that machine requires proprietary fiwrmware, which means that there will always be additional steps required to install Debian.

Although every indication is that you can install Stretch, Stretch is Debian's current Testing version. That means it's intermittently buggy and may stop working without any notice at all, making it unsuitable for the high-availability requirements of a work/production machine.

What's worse, Stretch is going to get even buggier over the next few weeks. Developers are going to be dropping largely untested code into Stretch in anticipation of the freeze.

The "good" news is that, in a couple of months, Stretch won't be accepting new code (and therefore new bugs). Which means it will only get better over the subsequent months as it makes its way to becoming the new Stable.

As for what you "should" do: unless you have a specific reason for jumping to Debian and doing so right now, maybe stick with Ubuntu for the next couple of months. (And no, curiosity or wanderlust does not qualify as a specific reason.) Let Stretch mature a bit, and then revisit the question in the Spring.
Last edited by dasein on 2016-12-19 14:21, edited 1 time in total.

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#3 Post by jyo »

Thank you for your advice it is much appreciated. I think I get the idea, so once installed I need to set the correct backports and request the specific packages. How does the system then deal with updates, can the system be told to take only those packages concerning the required kernel and not any other. I am a little confused as to what the backport actually is; is it a code base for the entire system or only for the packages that are needed? I think what I am trying to say is is there a way to stop the system taking other non related packages from there once it is in the address list for the package manager?

My real interest in debian stems from an interest in the c programming language and the original unix ethos, this seems to me to be a wonderful way to learn more about all of that. The work I am currently doing involves some very highlevel code which is rather less enticing, and the work is for an examination. So rather than wonderlust it is, I think, my true educational path. I had better however, wait, just as you have wisely stated; Such that I can be assured to be taking a forthcoming interview / exam with a stable machine. I have a local copy of the installation guide and users manual, my time will be perhaps best spent reading those until then.

Ah yes, I prefer to ask and no offense is taken, I am the first to admit to being wetter behind the ears than a dolphin. I do have a genuine interest in compiling my own linux systems and would really like to learn more, this seems to be a great next step. Very pleased to see that there is an opensource driver for the wifi chip.

My decision is to install Jessie and use the backport to install the required firmware and kernel, but to hold off for a few months before doing that; I have another old machine that I can play with until then that should more than quench my curiosity, it has an arm processor that is no longer supported by ubuntu which could be a great start for learning more about the whole instillation process.

Thanks again for your advice.

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#4 Post by jyo »

Just reading about apt apt-get and aptitude, with priority settings ... It looks as though this is what I need to know.

User avatar
mor
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#5 Post by mor »

jyo wrote:Very pleased to see that there is an opensource driver for the wifi chip.
Nope.

Read again:
dasein wrote:WiFi on that machine requires proprietary firmware

emphasis added
In addition to what my friends already said, I would like to speak to you about the nature of Debian's development branches (Testing and Unstable) because I have the feeling you might be interested in them for the wrong reasons (granted that from the point of view of every users' freedom to use whatever system they please, there are no right or wrong reasons, although I hope you will concede that if one uses common sense and understands the nature of Debian branches and the concept of stability, it can be said that some reasons are not exactly right).

Stability in Debian refers to the property of a system of being unchanging over the course of its release cycle. The notion that the word "stable" in the name of a release means "rock solid and reliable" is misguided an misguiding because even though it is true that a stable system is all that, it is a byproduct of the correct meaning of the word, namely unchanging, together with the fact that the development process to produce such system is long and thorough.
What does that mean for you?
It means that it is not about the difference between having a reliable system instead of a buggy-crashy one, indeed Testing and Unstable (nouns) are not unstable (adj) as opposed to how Stable (noun) is stable (adj), where both stable and unstable are mistakenly intended as "reliable".
Testing and Unstable can in fact, especially when operated by someone who has some experience and most of all the right mindset, be quite reliable and solid, while Stable is not at all inherently immune from crashes and other issues (it is however the next best thing).

Running a stable system like the official Debian release (Jessie now, Stretch in about 6-7 months) differs mainly from running a development branch in the amount of work and maintenance that a user has to put into it. Debian Stable is designed to be unchanging exactly to allow the user/admin to "set it and forget it" so to speak, and only having to oversee few and minor updates, mostly security stuff, without having to deal with upgrades to the system and applications, all things that in general interfere with productivity.
Development on the other hand, is designed to be a testing ground for software coming straight from upstream, is the environment where the future Stable system is put together, modeled, chiseled and polished to a shine.
A development user has to expect lots of updates and reconfiguration, upgrades and software changes which translate into a much bigger involvement in mere maintenance, which takes time out of productivity. Oh, and of course, in the midst of all that change, the bugs that are supposed to be caught and sorted out exactly on their systems.

As you can understand running a development system is always the wrong choice for anyone who has stuff to do other than simply maintaining the system.
Whether this stuff is high level programming or browsing for porn, writing your next novel or looking at funny cat pictures, Stable is always the correct choice.

When is Testing/Unstable the right choice?
It is the right choice when users are interested in testing new software and possibly contributing to the bug hunting process at the price of sacrificing their own productivity, or when users have Stable on their primary machine and then they need no reason, right or wrong, to do whatever they want on their secondary or tertiary rigs.
It is the right choice when the user has understood the nature of Debian branches and the concept of stability and most importantly has accepted the fact that development branches are not and cannot be "like Stable but with newer software" and also that they are not "the systems of experts and gurus".
Ultimately it is the right choice if users understand and accept not only the risks involved, but most importantly have the mindset to roll up their sleeves and do the searching, reading and patching and do so knowing that it is part of the experience, and not a detour or nuisance.

In conclusion, if you want to program and develop your own system, it means that you have absolutely no time to waste on system maintenance. So choose Stable, and not for this examination, but even after that.

Bye ;)

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#6 Post by jyo »

Thank you mor for your considered response, certainly some food for thought there. I have been drawn to Debian as an os exactly because of that which I have read about system stability. That and the ability to read and learn from its structure and perhaps eventually its code. I will be very happy to have a stable up to date version of debian on this machine; if I must install a kernel from a back port for now then so be it, if it runs without glitches I will be happy with that, for now I will follow the advice that is to rest with that which I know works.

I can fully appreciate that which you have said about system stability, for work-flow, heck that was why I dumped Windows ... Though I admittedly don't go there often I do have a dual boot, only when I really must, windows 10 on this machine is no where near as smooth as ubuntu.

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and wisdom; Looking forwards to learning more.

User avatar
mor
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#7 Post by mor »

jyo wrote:Thank you mor for your considered response, certainly some food for thought there. I have been drawn to Debian as an os exactly because of that which I have read about system stability.
You're welcome, I hope now you see how however not technically untrue, Debian Stable's reputation of being stable is misguiding.
jyo wrote:That and the ability to read and learn from its structure and perhaps eventually its code.
I am going on a limb here because I am not a programmer/coder, actually I am an average user at best, so take what I say with a grain of salt and wait for some more competent people to vouch for what I'm saying.

Which distro you use to learn developing software or even how operating system are organized and structured, is hardly relevant.
Kinda like it doesn't really make much difference to browse this forum or any other site with Firefox on Debian or Fedora or Gentoo.

The operating system is the tool to run your software on, but the code you read and write and execute will probably never know the difference (unless is aimed at a particular system, but that's not the point).

So whether you'll use Debian or Fedora, or Debian Stable or Debian Testing/Unstable, it is only gonna be you and the code, not the substrate. ;)

Bye and take care

PS
much obliged wizard :)

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#8 Post by jyo »

That is the beautiful thing about the unix ethos, all you need to do to add to the os, is to write a small c moduel for the terminal, perhaps using ncurses, and then you can simply plug it into your workflow using pipe ... genius!

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#9 Post by dasein »

mor wrote:Which distro you use to learn developing software or even how operating system are organized and structured, is hardly relevant.
[invert and snip]
...wait for some more competent people to vouch for what I'm saying.
Dunno about competent, but I'll vouch for what you're saying. :razz:

If one is interested in the systems programming side of things, then it almost doesn't matter what OS, much less what flavor of Linux. The tasks and issues systems devs face (scheduling, or interprocess communications, for example) have multiple solutions, and each OS is one (hopefully) coherent set of solutions woven into a single whole.

At the applications level, portability is an inherently good thing, so OS-agnostic solutions are almost always to be preferred. (Same goes for "init" systems, BTW.)

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#10 Post by jyo »

I am scratching my head and umming ar arring about the whole system V system D thing at the moment; seems to be rather a big deal.

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#11 Post by dasein »

Not the world's worst choice for a learning exercise. Except you need to think about it as "systemd yes|no". The false dichotomy of "sysv-vs-systemd" is a straw man folks raise when they are trying to deliberately obfuscate the discussion.

Offered as food for thought: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652

(Apologies for the apparent self-promotion)

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#12 Post by jyo »

dasein wrote:
According to the Wiki, Jessie does seem to be installable on that machine:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebia ... 250/Jessie
This s not quite the same machine, it being the previous model, can this be taken as a guide, perhaps assuming the construction has not been changed in any major way?

That is essentially why I was looking at the article in which stretch was sited for the x260 ...

User avatar
dasein
Posts: 7680
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#13 Post by dasein »

jyo wrote:...can this be taken as a guide, perhaps assuming the construction has not been changed in any major way?
There are two ways for you to get the answer this question:

1) Wait for someone who quite coincidentally has the exact same model as your rig to come along with a predigested answer

2) Try it and see. (Backup first, which is something you should be doing anyway.)

Everything else is just speculation.

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#14 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

jyo wrote:system V system D
Firstly, the program is called systemd
freedesktop.org wrote:Yes, it is written systemd, not system D or System D, or even SystemD. And it isn't system d either. Why? Because it's a system daemon, and under Unix/Linux those are in lower case, and get suffixed with a lower case d. And since systemd manages the system, it's called systemd. It's that simple. But then again, if all that appears too simple to you, call it (but never spell it!) System Five Hundred since D is the roman numeral for 500 (this also clarifies the relation to System V, right?). The only situation where we find it OK to use an uppercase letter in the name (but don't like it either) is if you start a sentence with systemd. On high holidays you may also spell it sÿstëmd. But then again, Système D is not an acceptable spelling and something completely different (though kinda fitting).
https://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

Secondly, the systemd-shim package is now un-maintained [1], if you don't want tentacles then I recommend Alpine Linux or OpenBSD instead.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=832508
deadbang

jyo
Posts: 9
Joined: 2016-12-19 12:54

Re: Debian jessie or stretch

#15 Post by jyo »

dasein wrote: 2) Try it and see. (Backup first, which is something you should be doing anyway.)
Ah yes, well backing up has just become my most favorite thing, having long been seeking a solution to the doubled folder issue; how to update only those files that have been changed and how to remove those that have been disposed of ... Now this is just so much fun and I smile every time I write the command; rsync. I love this environment, how I ever get drawn into wasting so much time with widows is quite beyond me.
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Secondly, the systemd-shim package is now un-maintained [1], if you don't want tentacles then I recommend Alpine Linux or OpenBSD instead.
Alpine linux seems very interesting, thank you for the pointer; I was familiar with BSD but Alpine is news to me. I would like to learn about compiling small systems on dedicated hardware, looks to be a good place to investigate.

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.

Post Reply