Feedback - Hope it helps

[rmdca]

I am new to Linux but I am no stranger to computers and in my experience, if I can't do something, the vast majority of users won't either or will go through the same pains.

Fed up with windows for years, installed Mint, set up a perfect dual boot with Win 10 in a laptop Bios HP 2170 (x86), 4 primary partitions, 2 for windows (didn't touch the 500 Mb boot), 2 for linux (1 swap).
Tried it for a few days, didn't like the feel. Why would you need edits, when you can have the real deal?
So I went for Debian stable 8.6.0, I don't care much for new things, I prefer stability and security.
I KNEW i would have to troubleshoot firmware, but I accepted it.

Now I understand why mint and ubunto even exist.

After trying many things over 2 days work (a win 10 install is 15 min) it arrived to a point where a Live Debian was running and connected to wireless, but the install via network couldn't detect the WLAN, even with all the necessary firmware (extracted from a .deb) sitting in a USB for it to read.
In another instance, I could provide the firmware for the WLAN and it would recognize it, but only by removing the install usb and inserting a new usb with the files (somehow it only recognized one USB port, I have 4 on the laptop).
But then the install software wouldn't recognize the re-inserted USB pen.
Tried to go for an offline full install. The debian page provides several CD and DVD ISOs but no single ISO.
There's a ton of info on installation to avoid the obvious: people are not using CDs anymore.

There are hundreds of searches, links, forum entries, for issues like this, making bootable isos, etc, etc
We're in 2016, in the age of torrents, fast wireless and cheap 16gb pen drives.

Seems to me the biggest improvement that can be made is to open the OS to more people, by making it possible (not easy, possible) to install.
Right now, it is obviously not working, unless you intend to keep Debian obscure.

[GarryRicketson]

Post by rmdca »I am new to Linux but I am no stranger to computers and in my experience, if I can't do something, the vast majority of users won't either or will go through the same pains.

I smell troll here, and probably should just ignore the post,...
Plus the OP is so much more experienced and knows how to do things
that the "vast majority" can not do,......
How ever,..... oh, the irony of it all,............

Post by rmdca > Seems to me the biggest improvement that can be made is to open the OS to more people, by making it possible (not easy, possible) to install.
Right now, it is obviously not working, unless you intend to keep Debian obscure.

Why did someone like me, whom knows very little, I did not have any difficulty
what so ever installing my Debian systems, the documentation covers everything
I needed to know, and it was EASY, as well as very possible to install, and various
versions, from Debian Squeeze, (Debian 6), to even the newest Debaian 8, and also
installing "sid" and testing,....all of them were easy to install,..
SO right now it is working, .....and there is nothing "obscure" about Debian,....

Feedback - Hope it helps

It does not help, to whine and complain here, about Debian development, we are
all just "users" , some more "normal" then others, but just Debian users,....
Debian User Forums
If the OP wants to complaing about how difficult it is for them to install Debian, then
they should use the mailing lists and contact the developement teams,....not us.

[acewiza]

Maybe you missed this:

Alternatively, there are now versions of the "netinst" CD images that also include all the non-free firmware packages directly - see http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unoff ... -firmware/

[rmdca]

Don't misunderstand me, I am just raising awareness for something that is not just my issue.
That should be a good thing.

[GarryRicketson]

Post by rmdca »Tried to go for an offline full install. The debian page provides several CD and DVD ISOs but no single ISO.
There's a ton of info on installation to avoid the obvious: people are not using CDs anymore.

This is BS, In fact the most reliable and best method to install is usining
a "live"CD, do a search, if you do not know what that is.
I use nothing but CD's and DVD's to do my install, so this "claim"

people are not using CDs anymore.

is not accurate.
For laptops that only have USB ports, and do not have a Optical drive
I use a poratble USB optical drive to boot them, and still install from a CD
or use a "live CD" to do repairs,... simple solution to the problem of
cheap junk that does not have a optical drive.

@OP

Post by rmdca » I am new to Linux but I am no stranger to computers and in my experience, if I can't do something, the vast majority of users won't either or will go through the same pains.

If you are new to linux, we understand that, but don't come in here, telling us
how you know more then "the vast majority of users", when in reality you don't know
sqawt,.....and then start telling us how much better your MS windows mal-ware and Linux Mint is,....
if you really need help, just tell us what the problem is, as best that you can, and
there are plenty of people willing to try to help.
If you like Linux Mint, or Windows malware better, just stick with them.
Debian is not "obscure", nor difficult to install,

Seems to me the biggest improvement that can be made is to open the OS to more people

The OS (Debian) is "open" and available, to anyone that wants to use it,.....
How can they improve on that,.....If what you want is for them to change the OS
so that it is more like your beloved Windows mal-ware, or Linux Mint, forget it,....
just use what suits your needs.
If you find Debian to difficult, then it is not the OS for you.

[vbrummond]

Yeah, the only thing easier to install than Debian is FreeBSD, haha. Name, password, auto partition, copies a few files in 5 seconds, and done.

[rmdca]

Garry, please calm the mexican beans, man. I am not here to offend anyone.

Maybe if I rephrase:
A graphical install didn't complete because, although, it was able to recognize the firmware files for a hotspot, after the user provided them, didn't recognize a 2nd USB or the re-inserted installation USB.
Same thing installing from a live USB iso (running live debian already connect via the same hotspot, which is strange).

I am not looking to occupy your time, I am looking for you to understand the things that still happen.

[Segfault]

Never had any issues with netinstall. I use it to install the bare base system. After it reboots I start installing the software I need. I see no reason why I should install any software during install phase.

[pylkko]

@rmdca

Your feedback sounds like it is intended for Debian. I does not seem like you realize that this forum does have any kind of official relationship with Debian and Debian developers do not read this forum.

Also, with respect to

Unless you intend to keep Debian obscure.

If we take your view of "obscure" then I think that looks as if the fundamental principles behind making Debian will indeed lead to obscurity.

[Bulkley]

Never had any issues with netinstall. I use it to install the bare base system. After it reboots I start installing the software I need. I see no reason why I should install any software during install phase.

+1

[arochester]

Now I understand why mint and ubunto even exist.

There is a maxim which says "When you install Ubuntu you learn Ubuntu. When you install (say) Debian you learn Linux."

Have you tried installing Arch? Gentoo? Slackware?

Some distros are made to suit newbies/ refugees from Microsoft and Apple. How many people start with simple and then move on to more complicated?

Does everything need to be reduced to the simplest possible? Is the lowest common denominator always best?

Look at Distrowatch "Page Watch Ranking" which shows Debian at the moment as second. It can't be that difficult.

[dasein]

Now I understand why mint and ubunto even exist.

You do indeed. OoB user experience is not now and never has been a priority for Debian. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends largely on your point of view. If UX is a priority for you, then Debian is probably not the right distro for your needs, in the same sense that you wouldn't want to live in Seattle if you want warm, dry weather.

You're also quite right that Debian's installer is among its weakest UX features. Not surprisingly, this feedback has been offered many (many!) times over a period of many years; sadly, the devs have never found such feedback worthy of action.

Look at Distrowatch "Page Watch Ranking" which shows Debian at the moment as second. It can't be that difficult.

1) Distrowatch page rankings are totally meaningless. Even DW says so.

2) Even if they were meaningful, the number of hits on the Debian DW page is not a valid surrogate for installer usability. (Just sayin')

[vbrummond]

Ubuntu exists to make money for Canonical. It has long since ceased to even pretend to care about community and open source spirit. Even Apple at least has a very strict privacy policy and contributes to open source projects.

Debian does what it does very well. It offers a reliable and stable Binary distribution with a unique development workflow. The efforts toward keeping stable relevant in the last few years have shown.

[Thorny]

I am not looking to occupy your time, I am looking for you to understand the things that still happen.

Well rmdca, your post is not a support request so I don't understand why you posted in this part of the forum rather than the general discussions. Surely someone with your knowledge and experience of operating systems would also be aware of how to find the correct place to post something to "instruct" us. Instead of telling us though, you might do more toward contributing to Debian by filing a bug report on the "issues" you recognise with the installer. Most of us here don't have the troubles you've identified and, as you've already been told, aren't the developers of the installer.