EXTREMELY old-school installation woes

[Ray Ingles]

What I ultimately want to do is extract some data from some old (circa-1997) floppy tape backups. Modern kernels don't even have the ftape driver anymore, and most of the motherboards in my possession don't even include a floppy interface. So I'm trying to resurrect an antique system with a floppy tape drive. The specs would make it a dream system of 1994, but are a little lacking for modern Linux:

• No-name ISA/VLB motherboard, 1993 BIOS that can only boot off floppy or IDE hard drive
  Pentium Overdrive 83MHz
  32MB RAM
  Two 3GB IDE drives
  IDE DVD/CD-ROM drive (the most recent hardware in the box)
  One serial port, one parallel port, 1.44MB floppy drive
  3Com 3c509 ISA Ethernet card

Since I can't boot off of CD, I must boot off of floppy. The most recent Debian that could possibly boot on this hardware is sarge, Debian 3.1. After a bit of work, I've been able to make floppy boot images, boot off them, and start installation. It can even find my 3c509 Ethernet and get an address via DHCP!

However, the floppy installer has a hardcoded list of mirrors it'll check, and 'archive.debian.org' is not on that list. So it can't continue the install, and doesn't provide an option for me to pull the install packages off of CD. I'm sure the "netinst" or "business card" CD images would work better, but I can't boot from them - and the floppy installer, as I said, doesn't seem to believe in them.

I've tried to fire up a terminal while the installer's running, and search for some file I could edit to hack the list of mirrors, but I couldn't find anything obvious. Does anyone know how to edit these floppy images in such a way? Failing that, the best idea I've come up with is to hack up a fake HTTP proxy that translates, say, 'ftp.debian.org' to 'archive.debian.org'. But that's a pain.

If I could just get an install onto the hard drive that I could boot from, I could handle all the rest. The problem is getting to that point. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions? Thanks!

[dasein]

Purely pedantic point: any solution to this issue is going to be "a pain." A hassle-free option just isn't available.

Since I don't have a pile of Sarge boot floppies handy, I have no idea if this suggestion is viable, but maybe it's worth exploring: if you could edit /etc/hosts on the appropriate disk(s?) to "resolve" ftp.debian.org to the IP address of archive.debian.org, you might be able to make at least some incremental progress. (Or it may fail entirely. I have no idea if Sarge boot floppies even use DNS.)

the floppy installer has a hardcoded list of mirrors it'll check

Don't let this unproven assumption drive your thinking too much. (To be clear, I'm saying unproven, not necessarily incorrect.) After all, you did report looking for exactly such a file and not finding it.

[Dai_trying]

What I ultimately want to do is extract some data from some old (circa-1997) floppy tape backups.

I would suggest a usb floppy drive available on ebay/amazon etc quite cheaply. I haven't used one myself but a friend has one and says it is handy when he needs something from his childhood days

[Ray Ingles]

Purely pedantic point: any solution to this issue is going to be "a pain." A hassle-free option just isn't available.

Well, duh. I know that! I'm just hoping to minimize the pain.

Since I don't have a pile of Sarge boot floppies handy, I have no idea if this suggestion is viable, but maybe it's worth exploring: if you could edit /etc/hosts on the appropriate disk(s?)

That's a good idea, and I tried something similar - booting off the floppy, and using the terminal to hack the /etc/hosts file (no vi or even ed, so I had to use echo and >> to append the line), but it didn't make any difference.

After all, you did report looking for exactly such a file and not finding it.

There's no /etc/apt/sources.list or anything else, either. Of course, I'm asking on here to check that very assumption. But the installer offers no option to enter a different host, and it comes with a list of hosts that includes no-longer-existent entries.

[Ray Ingles]

What I ultimately want to do is extract some data from some old (circa-1997) floppy tape backups.

I would suggest a usb floppy drive available on ebay/amazon etc quite cheaply. I haven't used one myself but a friend has one and says it is handy when he needs something from his childhood days

To clarify: I'm not trying to load things off floppy disks, I'm trying to restore backups from floppy tape. Back in the day, there were tape backup drives that used the floppy disk interface and accepted QIC ('quarter-inch-cartridge') tapes. The particular one I used - and still have - is the "Colorado 350" (like this: https://www.recycledgoods.com/colorado- ... drive-350/ ). I am very doubtful that I could hack and solder a USB floppy drive to connect to the Colorado, and even more skeptical that I could bastardize a Linux kernel that could talk to the tape drive over a USB-to-floppy adapter.

On the bright side, I managed to bypass at least some of the network requirements. I played with the "cd-drivers" floppy image and managed to get the floppy-based installer to see the contents of the "netinst" CD. I was able to get an installation onto the disk, and planned to hack up its apt sources file to point to archive.debian.org to install the software I needed (such as the compiler and kernel sources to make sure I had a usable kernel with the 'ftape' - 'floppy tape' - driver).

However, after the install, I rebooted... and got Grub error 17. So now I need to figure out why Grub is so unhappy. I was trying to preserve some old DOS/Windows installs, but at this point I think I might just say 'screw it' and try wiping everything, and making sure there's a /boot partition at the start of the first hard drive. Anyone have any better ideas?

[pcalvert]

Hi,

Here is a possible solution: Smart BootManager

With it you'll be able to create a special floppy disk that will allow you to boot from the DVD/CD-ROM drive.

BTW, when I used Smart BootManager on an old laptop, I always got a error message when I tried to boot from the DVD-ROM drive, so for a long time I thought that feature was broken. But then one day when I got the error message I immediately tried a second time. It worked!

Phil

[Dai_trying]

Sorry, I misunderstood your intentions, would it not be possible to get an old Win98/Xp box and install your tape drive into it in place of the floppy drive, and then backup/move your backup images to USB storage or HDD, that is presuming your tapes are readable from Windows...

[dasein]

I find myself wondering why it has to be Linux. Let's face it, MS-DOS was a contemporary of this hardware. I presume that you've exhausted the possibility of using old DOS drivers?

[Ray Ingles]

I find myself wondering why it has to be Linux.

Because the backups were made with Linux, of course. DOS and Windows software has no clue what to do with gzipped tar files or cpio archives with Unix 'compress' compression.

I just ran through another install, and wiped a Windows drive, but I got Grub error 18 instead of 17.

[pcalvert]

I just ran through another install, and wiped a Windows drive, but I got Grub error 18 instead of 17.

Try LILO. It often works when GRUB does not.

Phil

[dasein]

Because the backups were made with Linux, of course.

"Of course"?? You assume folks here can read your mind?

DOS and Windows software has no clue what to do with gzipped tar files or cpio archives with Unix 'compress' compression.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, getting the old files off the tape and onto an HDD is nothing more than a matter of moving bytes between media--an OS-agnostic process that could easily be accomplished under DOS. Subsequent processing of the relocated files could be accomplished in an entirely separate step.

But since my telepathy skills are nonexistent, I leave it to others to offer further suggestions.

[Ray Ingles]

"Of course"?? You assume folks here can read your mind?

Well, I hoped it would be clear from the context of the question and the place I chose to ask it, but evidently not. I wasn't being dismissive, if that's what you're worried about. I do appreciate anyone willing to try to help.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, getting the old files off the tape and onto an HDD is nothing more than a matter of moving bytes between media. Processing the relocated files could be accomplished in an entirely separate step.

I've not encountered, nor heard of, any DOS/Windows floppy tape software that can dump raw bytes off of tape. If you find some, please do let me know.

[GarryRicketson]

Because the backups were made with Linux, of course. DOS and Windows software has no clue what to do with gzipped tar files or cpio archives with Unix 'compress' compression.

MS products are all ways extremely limited.

Free Dos , was developed using Linux, and does have utilities to unzip .tar files,
I am short on time at the moment, but it might be worth looking into.
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/pc/dos/freedos/files/fdupdate/
================

http://www.freedos.org/history/
==========================
http://www.freedos.org/
====================
In another thread, I quoted Jim Hall, he said , "If it was not for linux, he might never had been able to develope Free Dos",... and in reverse, on my end, if it had not been for Free Dos, I might never have started with Linux,... they go together very well.
I had to make and use a FreeDos boot disk, to prepare the hd and boot before I could install
Debian 1.0 to a very old IBM, from the late 90's, I was experimenting with.
Long story and not enough time,... interesting topic though.

I never did anything with the "tapes" and cartridge things, I do remember seeing
them though. But can't help much there.
The big problem, is anything that has been touched by a microsoft product usually ends up "corrupted", which is the reason I moved away from MS dos, and started using Free Dos ,as soon as it was available, and also never really used the MS windows , even at the very beginning. but that is another topic. ... good luck.

[Ray Ingles]

Well, the third time's the charm. I repartitioned the disk and made sure there was a /boot partition right at the start of the drive (ancient BIOS limitation) and I was able to get a netinst installation to boot off the hard drive and start configuration. I was even able to update /etc/apt/sources.list to point to archive.debian.org/debian, and it found the packages.

Sadly, it failed to install some, and I'd hit the end of my time budget for the day, but it looks like I'll be able to get this thing running, eventually. If I can boot off the hard disk and get to the network, that should be sufficient.

[acewiza]

Maybe neither here nor there, but there is another option if you are not set on using Debian. Early Redhat releases (probably some others I'm unaware of, as well) from the late 90's era used a DOS-based functionality that can start the installer from a DOS command line. Nothing more than bootable DOS with CD-ROM configured is needed to accomplish your task, assuming you have the install media and compatible hardware.

[Ray Ingles]

Well, the third time's the charm. I repartitioned the disk and made sure there was a /boot partition right at the start of the drive (ancient BIOS limitation) and I was able to get a netinst installation to boot off the hard drive and start configuration. I was even able to update /etc/apt/sources.list to point to archive.debian.org/debian, and it found the packages.

Sadly, it failed to install some, and I'd hit the end of my time budget for the day, but it looks like I'll be able to get this thing running, eventually. If I can boot off the hard disk and get to the network, that should be sufficient.

Well, the base install seems to have failed. It can't install any of the packages; I see things like 'dpkg-maintscript-helper: command not found' and such. Has anyone run into something like that before, on older Debian installs?

[pcalvert]

Hi Ray,

Why don't you download the Debian 3.1 r8 netinstall ISO and install using that?

Phil

[Ray Ingles]

Why don't you download the Debian 3.1 r8 netinstall ISO and install using that?

Well, unfortunately, I did. As I noted on June 25th, "I played with the "cd-drivers" floppy image and managed to get the floppy-based installer to see the contents of the "netinst" CD. I was able to get an installation onto the disk..." Unfortunately, that's the install that doesn't successfully finish setting up properly. Apt seems to be in a broken state at the end. I can boot and log in, but without being able to install any new packages it's not terribly useful.

[pcalvert]

What I meant was don't use the floppy-based installer; boot from the netinstall CD and use its built-in Debian installer.

Phil

[Ray Ingles]

What I meant was don't use the floppy-based installer; boot from the netinstall CD and use its built-in Debian installer.

Sadly, as I noted in my first post of this thread, I'm dealing with a "1993 BIOS that can only boot off floppy or IDE hard drive". Booting from floppy seems to be my only recourse. For example, the Plop boot manager floppy image couldn't boot off of CD on this system.