Feedback from new user - Install problems

Help with issues regarding installation of Debian

Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby MALsPa » 2017-09-10 13:11

bryanmc wrote:
MALsPa wrote:I don't have much difficulty getting Debian installed and set up here. And I'm not "moving on" and dumping Debian for another distro; Debian's worked fine for me for years. So, whatever, carry on.


I never suggested you move on, wrong guy. You say you have run Debian for years and don't have any trouble installing it, yet you don't know how to set up the swap partition? I suppose some folks are so advanced that the really simple beginner stuff confounds them... :?

Anyway, good luck in your quest.

You're getting me mixed up with somebody else. Where did I ever write that I don't know how to set up the swap partition? Make sure you know what you're talking about before you hit that "Submit" button. I'm not on any quest.
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby MALsPa » 2017-09-10 13:14

debiman wrote:^ fwiw, i think debian got through the last 20 years because devs concentrate on what's really important.

Good point, I can totally go along with that.
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby bryanmc » 2017-09-10 14:19

MALsPa wrote:You're getting me mixed up with somebody else. Where did I ever write that I don't know how to set up the swap partition? Make sure you know what you're talking about before you hit that "Submit" button. I'm not on any quest.


You're right, I got you and the OP intertwined somehow on the partition thing. Apologies.
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-09-10 18:29

spechter wrote:Maybe something is actually broken?

Then you should submit a bug report and make yourself actually useful instead of coming here and irritating us with your moronic moaning.

https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting

@stevepusser: ixnay on the unsenlabs-Bay :twisted:
"Are you quite sure that all those bells and whistles, all those wonderful facilities of your so called powerful programming languages, belong to the solution set rather than the problem set?" — Edsger W. Dijkstra
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby spechter » 2017-10-14 06:26

Just a final update for anyone still listening.

(I apologise for my original post, but yes, I was really frustrated at the time.
Note that I wasn't particularly looking for help, but thanks for those that offered concrete help anyway.
More than anything else, the point of my post was feedback about my experience. It was what it was, rightly or wrongly.)

1) I started over and installed with the 'non-free' installer, which fixed the NIC problem.
On dry-run (with the free installer), I noted the screen did actually say "Hardware will not function [without driver file]". I guess I was overly optimistic to forge on. Mea culpa. But then again, the NIC _did_ function all the way until the reboot (even with the free installer), which I still find strange, and which made me think the driver warning was non-fatal (Wrong!). Maybe there is a free driver that just performs really badly?

2) I tried to recreate my experience of not being able to configure my hard drive partitions as required. I admit - I couldn't recreate what I remember encountering the first time (Specifically - Could select filesystem types but not swap...). It's possible I didn't figure out how to navigate the pseudo-graphical interface.
I still suggest a massive improvement to the _guided_ partitioning would be to ask for the size of the root partition, obviously with the default as the suggestion. There are huge variations in root partition requirements between a non-graphical single-purpose server and an all-singing & dancing graphical desktop. Having to go fully manual, just to change that one (obvious) parameter is non-ideal for users, surely.

3) (And a bit of 1) The SLOOOW install from network - About 24 hours. Network install was about 100 times faster the second time around. I don't know if it was the non-free NIC drivers, or the fact that I chose a different mirror. The installer mirror screen suggests some mirror like "...debian.[countrycode]..." is "a good choice" if you don't know otherwise. In my case (.au) this may have been a very BAD choice. I don't know. The second time I looked carefully for any mirror that looked geographically close to me. There was just one - A university in my state. With this selected, the network install ran literally 2 order of magnitude faster. - Again, pretty big trap for new users if you take the suggestion on screen - How is one to know that isn't the normal experience? I didn't, I thought it was just a pile of unwanted crap that bloated the DL time beyond all reasonableness.

Ultimately, I got Debian installed the way I wanted. Hooray.
I particularly liked the fact that I could install multiple desktops right there in the installer. - If that fact was widely known by people trying to decide their favourite desktop, Debian might get a bit more traffic! One of the things you hear about Mint is the great choice of desktops - Debian has that, and more, it seems - With just some tick-boxes at install!

Why didn't I raise a bug report? Because I wasn't really sure if anything was a bug.
Still don't. Is it expected the kernel will panic if NIC driver is not supplied? Shouldn't it just boot without the NIC working? I don't know.

And it's great that Debian has extensive documentation, but the world has evolved to the point that documentation should (rightly) be the last resort. It's the new world. You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.
So my feedback stands again - Having to resort to the documentation, and a long-winded process, simply to choose the size of the root partition is not ideal.

Anyway, thanks again for those that helped, even if I didn't ask for it (or deserve it).

Have a nice day. :roll:
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby MALsPa » 2017-10-14 10:19

spechter wrote:And it's great that Debian has extensive documentation, but the world has evolved to the point that documentation should (rightly) be the last resort. It's the new world. You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.

Wow. I don't see things that way at all. I'll stick with the old school approach. The documentation is the first place I look, not "the last resort."
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby debiman » 2017-10-14 12:08

oh, the mysteriously slow network install, i remember being stumped by that.

well good you have it up and running, though you seem to be somewhat less than satisfied.


spechter wrote:And it's great that Debian has extensive documentation, but the world has evolved to the point that documentation should (rightly) be the last resort. It's the new world. You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.

really?
"the world has evolved to the point that documentation should be the last resort."
wtf does that even mean? people are getting more and more stupid in this brave new world of yours? or cannot read anymore? everybody should just click the large, friendly OK button? software has finally developed self-awareness?
take this:
Image
PS: i really need to add the word "pseudo-intellectual" to my criticism.
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-10-14 14:29

by spechter »You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.


Yes , exactly right, and I have learned to avoid poorly documented software and OS's when they have no manual, or very little (small), it is of very poor design, and reflects that the same probably applies to the software or OS .

When there are no manuals, nor good documentation for some software or
program, including a OS , I stay away from it.
The manuals and documentation are essential, especially for some one that has not used the software or OS before.
"What we expect you have already Done"

Before doing anything, read the Debian documentation:
Debian Documentation
How to ask the smart way
Debian Foro Español
======================
For the Birds
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby RU55EL » 2017-10-15 05:41

spechter wrote:[...]You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.[...]


Yes, I also agree with this. The quality and completeness of software documentation is a direct reflection of the quality and completeness of the software. I find that complete and eloquent documentation is a good indicator of high quality software. I love it when I can install software that I'm completely unfamiliar with, but after an afternoon of reading the software documentation, can operate the software and make use of many nuances that I would never realize without the documentation.

When I first began using GNU/Linux software, I would play around and experiment with software to try and figure out how to use it. Somewhat frustrating. It wasn't long before I realized that evaluating the software documentation before attempting to use new software was much quicker and simpler. Sometimes poor quality, or lack of sufficient documentation, would be all that I needed to decide not to install the software. And, after evaluating the documentation, I usually had a fair idea how to properly use the software.
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Re: Feedback from new user - Install problems

Postby Gaius » 2017-10-15 14:02

spechter wrote:..... but the world has evolved to the point that documentation should (rightly) be the last resort. It's the new world. You can literally judge the quality of a design by how small its manual can be.

That must be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
This statement may be correct, if the software in question is designed for a single simple task (like creating a bootable drive from an .iso file, i.e. Rufus et al), but it certainly doesn't apply to something as complex as an OS.

I work with SAP software.
The documentation/manual for the basic module is approx. 1,500 pages, with another 800 to 1,000 pages for each of SAP's dozens of specialised modules.
Don't expect to be able to use the software expertly without having read a few thousand pages of documentation.
And if you know what SAP ERP systems are, you'll also know that they have no real competition. It's the best software available ... despite extensive documentation, lol.

You sound like somebody who'd be much happier with a Mac ... a "dongle" here and a "dongle" there ... and absolutely no need to use your own brain, ever.

----------

I won't even ask why 30GB for the / partition seem "dangerously small" ... my / is 20GB, and I expect to never use more than maybe 5% of that (currently 563MB).
Were you talking about a 2-partition setup, maybe, only / and swap?
If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.
Albert Einstein
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