Solved - Desktop selection during installation

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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby llivv » 2018-12-05 08:12

classe wrote:Hi,

What's the difference between "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" ?

During my installation of Debian 9.6, I selected the option of "GNOME" on the screen of "Software selection", and then, after finished the installation, I can login the GNOME environment;

But, if I selected "Debian desktop environment" instead of "GNOME", the login environment was still GNOME !

So, what's the difference between "Debian desktop environment" and "GNOME" ?
or "Debian desktop environment" = "GNOME" ?

If they were the same, why "Debian desktop environment" ?

Image

Thanks

It's a programming thing
and when has a programming thing ever made any sense to normal people?

Yes you get the same thing if you choose Debian desktop environment OR Gnome
If one chooses both Debian desktop environment and Gnome you get something else. It's a programming thing.

Like milomak said above it's really not the same at all
even if it appears that way to normal people. It's a programming thing!
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby Dai_trying » 2018-12-05 08:48

llivv wrote:Yes you get the same thing if you choose Debian desktop environment OR Gnome
If one chooses both Debian desktop environment and Gnome you get something else. It's a programming thing.

Like milomak said above it's really not the same at all
even if it appears that way to normal people. It's a programming thing!


This would appear to be the crux of the question, what is the something else? I think the answer to that would resolve OP's question.

I am guessing it could be something to do with common desktop settings/utilities but do not have knowledge of this so cannot say with any degree of certainty.
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby llivv » 2018-12-05 09:01

The hierarchy is explained in the README.
Debian desktop environment is the parent task
The other DE's are children
One has to choose both Debian desktop environment and Gnome to get the gnome metapackage.
The combinations debconf deals with are a bit overwhelming to the uninitiated
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby Dai_trying » 2018-12-05 09:11

llivv wrote:The higherarchy is explained in the README.


My bad, I guess I need to read more...

llivv wrote:Debian desktop environment is the parent task
The other DE's are children
One has to choose both Debian desktop environment and Gnome to get the gnome metapackage.


As I understand it the Gnome metapackage (being the default one) would be installed if no other DE is selected, it does not make sense to me that it would install something else...

Would the full desktop still be installed if Gnome is selected and Debian desktop environment is not? I realise this is likely something I should fire up a few VM's and test/compare to find out but this thread has me intrigued...
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby llivv » 2018-12-05 12:34

Dai_trying wrote:As I understand it the Gnome metapackage (being the default one) would be installed if no other DE is selected,
That appears to be the general consensus from those who don't know the difference between a deb and a udeb and/or why the installer is automated in the way it currently is.
Dai_trying wrote:it does not make sense to me that it would install something else...
zactly
Dai_trying wrote:Would the full desktop still be installed if Gnome is selected and Debian desktop environment is not?
No
I thought that was stated in the README clearly fairly .
Dai_trying wrote:I realise this is likely something I should fire up a few VM's and test/compare to find out but this thread has me intrigued...
tracking the d-i used to be fun for some of team boot. kudos
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby classe » 2018-12-09 00:38

llivv wrote:It's a programming thing
and when has a programming thing ever made any sense to normal people?

Yes you get the same thing if you choose Debian desktop environment OR Gnome
If one chooses both Debian desktop environment and Gnome you get something else. It's a programming thing.

Like milomak said above it's really not the same at all
even if it appears that way to normal people. It's a programming thing!


------------------------------

Thank you for your reply.

Now I understand more about why I don't understand the option of "Debian desktop environment" .
For the option of "Debian desktop environment", I have an idea. We can remove the first option "Debian desktop environment" from the DE selection screen, and modify the second one "GNOME", like what MALsPa said above:
MALsPa wrote:The first one should be removed and the second one could be something like "GNOME (default)".

or " GNOME(Debian default).
I think it looks better for the user than the previous design.

The DE selection design is for use, not to make people think like programmers, especially for normal people. Maybe most normal people just think that the function of "Debian desktop environment" is "Dell OS". I guess that this modification is easy to achieve.

I'd love to know what you think of my idea(To remove the first one and to modify the second one).

Thanks~
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby bw123 » 2018-12-09 01:05

What if another distro that uses the installer, or parts of it, has a different use for this "Debian desktop environment" entry? or what about people that use scripts or preseed to run installs for many machines? When you change something, thinking it might be harmless, and give some benefit, you have to consider what it might break that you are unaware of.

There's a good debian installer team, they are pretty active, they have mailing lists, accept bug reports, and read debian-user list also.
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/

p.s. you should browse old posts on the lists and bugreports before starting a new thread or filing a bug
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby golinux » 2018-12-09 01:45

@classe . . . in a few years, after you become familiar with Debian, I think you will reread this thread and laugh at your logic (or lack thereof).
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby bw123 » 2018-12-09 02:50

golinux wrote:@classe . . . in a few years, after you become familiar with Debian, I think you will reread this thread and laugh at your logic (or lack thereof).


I am just a user myself, so I can understand the question. The thing to maybe help understanding the installer is to realize it is used for many types of installs on many types of systems. It's not just for desktops, or servers, or workstations, or standalone, or netwroked computers. There are some flavors, or blends, or whatever they call it now, like kde-edu or -med pkgs or others that might use this function of the installer in different ways? The code may be ported or reused who knows where?

I'm just guessing, but if it's a serious request to change the installer, this is how a bug report would probably be scrutinized? Are you sure this change would not affect anybody else in a negative way?
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby golinux » 2018-12-09 03:09

bw123 wrote:I'm just guessing, but if it's a serious request to change the installer, this is how a bug report would probably be scrutinized? Are you sure this change would not affect anybody else in a negative way?

The debian installer is a complex hairball and not easy to work with. Devuan devs have made some changes but doing so is not trivial.
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby llivv » 2018-12-09 03:35

classe wrote:
llivv wrote:It's a programming thing
and when has a programming thing ever made any sense to normal people?

Yes you get the same thing if you choose Debian desktop environment OR Gnome
If one chooses both Debian desktop environment and Gnome you get something else. It's a programming thing.

Like milomak said above it's really not the same at all
even if it appears that way to normal people. It's a programming thing!


------------------------------

Thank you for your reply.

Now I understand more about why I don't understand the option of "Debian desktop environment" .
For the option of "Debian desktop environment", I have an idea. We can remove the first option "Debian desktop environment" from the DE selection screen, and modify the second one "GNOME", like what MALsPa said above:
MALsPa wrote:The first one should be removed and the second one could be something like "GNOME (default)".

or " GNOME(Debian default).
I think it looks better for the user than the previous design.

The DE selection design is for use, not to make people think like programmers, especially for normal people. Maybe most normal people just think that the function of "Debian desktop environment" is "Dell OS". I guess that this modification is easy to achieve.

I'd love to know what you think of my idea(To remove the first one and to modify the second one).

Thanks~
End Users are a funny lot, all of us.

Take a look at the number of Architectures that Debian supports.
(Not many end users will likely ever undersand what that means.)
If one uses fingers on both hands and toes on one foot the number can be counted. If one adds unofficial Architectures someone needs more than fingers and toes to arrive at the sum.
https://wiki.debian.org/SupportedArchitectures
Now look at Arch, Mint, Ubuntu, Centos, Gentoo, Fedora Architectures supported and you will begin to get a picture starting to develop before your eyes.

If Debian were to drop all the other Architectures and only support x86 ie: i386 and x86-64 ie: amd64, the installer would be, by now, easy enough for a cave man to install Debian on those two Architectures.

Now I have to install kernel debug symbols and run modified bootups to find a regression (or whatever it turns out to be) for my old mobo in testings newest kernel. Thanks :shock:
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Re: Desktop selection during installation

Postby classe » 2018-12-11 12:32

Great!

This explanation sounds better --- "Debian desktop environment" were used by not only amd64, but also by other architectures.
It's the best answer for me!

Bw123, thank you;
Golinux, thank you;
Llivv, thank you;

I've never installaed Debian on an architectures other than amd64. I think I probably won't touch those architectures for the rest of my life. I know Debian support many architectures before I installed it. Before your replys, I never thought of the problem of multiple architectures.

Now I understand that the “programming thing” means multiple architectures and lacking of human resources, not just to print a sentence like "hello,world!". Debian for all architectures use the same installer program, so, It doesn't change as simply as just amd64.

"Debian desktop environment" bothered me for a long time, and, I was often asked to read the manual/wiki/guide... I do read, but reading documents doesn't solve my doubts. And, I think it's right for me not to understand the "Debian desktop environment" until I see the "multiple architectures".

Before bw123's reply, no one talked to me about "multiple architectures". Maybe the way my question was presented may not be clear enough.

Now I can explain "Debian desktop environment" to my friends and students. It also proved that Debian is powerful. I think I can get a good night's sleep.


Thank you all for your reply~
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