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Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

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bmx34
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#16 Post by bmx34 »

Please add code tags to the terminal output in the first post
Apologies for that. That's fixed.
might try checking if there's a newer bios version
Indeed; I have found a "more recent" BIOS, from 2007 (previous was dated 2005). Flashed it via FreeDOS, but no improvement.
but may be video card be something to investigate at ?
Done that, I tried with something more recent (GTX750), but still no difference.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#17 Post by CwF »

Back to the blinking cursor, that is maybe a failed VT7. Try switching Ctrl+Alt+F1 or F2. You tried that right?

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#18 Post by bmx34 »

Yes, I did

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#19 Post by p.H »

CwF wrote:Back to the blinking cursor, that is maybe a failed VT7.
There is no tty7 in the installer. Do you mean GUI (tty5) ?
Besides, if it was A GUI issue, the boot in expert mode should display a lot of text before.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#20 Post by Deb-fan »

Really seems time to just accept your hardware limits that system to use of 32bit software. Shuffling components around, things like hdd's-etc is clearly not going to accomplish anything, it's just needless hassle and risk. Something gets damaged, incorrectly reinstalled or static discharge zaps something you'd prefer remains unzapped. All this time, effort and x-risk for zero real gain. Nothing you or anyone else can do is going to get around hardware limitations. Minecraft isnt the only thing in the world and thanks to Debian gnu/Linux that system can go on being a useful piece of equipment for a long time to come. Amazing in/of itself, a 15yr old PC can still be made to run well in 2020. :)

Ps, also doubt you're the only person ever, who wanted to use Minecraft servers on 32b, if you're going to dump more time into this would start googling on that angle see if somebody has already posted work-arounds online. Ah either way, good luck. You dang sure get A for effort.
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#21 Post by axon3 »

issue looks to be low level. Would compiling your own kernel on your config help ?

bmx34
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#22 Post by bmx34 »

You dang sure get A for effort.
Thanks :wink:

Kernel compilation definitly looks a good idea, and I'll try that if nothing else works. But before, I wanted to test very old images, and here is a nice surprise, I have found debian-live-500-amd64-standard working fine !

Now I will try to find the latest image that works / the first that fails, and will surely let you know. I think it will help understanding what's wrong (could it be that past a certain point, kernel is built with SSE4, or any other extention that my CPU does not have ?)

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#23 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

bmx34 wrote:debian-live-500-amd64-standard working fine !
Perhaps a kernel regression then. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianKernel/GitBisect but you can't really follow that without a working system.

EDIT: confused nonsense removed.
deadbang

bmx34
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#24 Post by bmx34 »

OK, now I have nailed down the first distribution causing issues : Jessie.
I can install 7.11, but 8.0.0 fails. Looks like a regression indeed.

Next step : have a look at GitBisect !

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#25 Post by Deb-fan »

Make that A+ for effort. :)

Rampant speculation follows. It did cross my mind to suggest trying older kernels, though have zero clue what quality in terms of performance or other significant metrics such an install would be likely to have. Would be far too many question marks to endorse or advise anyone of such a course of action. Like many things could be a try it and see situation. Using older kernels on Buster. Have formerly installed archived software from former releases (gksu) and yep, continues working w/o problems. Might also focus on older versions of gnu/nix firmware. At some point software must be slated to being dropped and that system would reasonably be a candidate for that type of thing @15yrs. Can't be very many pc's that old still commonly in use.

As with so much else hardware related, comes back to kernel + firmware.
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#26 Post by trinidad »

You can't believe your eyes if your imagination is out of focus.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#27 Post by Deb-fan »

Might have something to do with it. The date of that system, stems from a time Intel was just starting to release 64bit chips apparently. AMD beat them out, doing so in 2003, depending on reference ... Intel didn't follow until 04 or 2005. Looks like that architecture was abandoned in Jessie onwards.

https://wiki.debian.org/Ports/ia64

PS, not that overly matters, you got 64b. Should mean 64b Java, thus Minecrafty goodness for the younguns. Have said often just because x-software goes end-of-life clearly doesn't mean it ceases working or being perfectly good software. :)
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#28 Post by p.H »

Xeon processors are x86, not Itanium. Itanium (ia64) has nothing to do with x86_64 (amd64). They are totally unrelated architectures and processors.

bmx34
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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#29 Post by bmx34 »

It took me a few days of dichotomy in kernels, but now I know which is the first one failing.

3.4.113 is OK
3.5.1 fails.

I've had a look at the changelog (https://mirrors.edge.kernel.org/pub/lin ... eLog-3.5.1), and some changes are definilty cpu specific, but nothing obvious to me can explain my problem.

Bisect can now help me spoting the faulty commit I guess.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#30 Post by p.H »

What about 3.5 ?
ChangeLog-3.5.1 only contains changes between 3.5 and 3.5.1.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#31 Post by bmx34 »

Indeed, their is a 3.5. I did not noticed it because this version does not have a changelog file here : https://mirrors.edge.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v3.x. I am not sure why.
But the code is definitly available, and I built it. If fails.

So the problem comes from a changelist between 3.4.113 and 3.5

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#32 Post by p.H »

I don't know why, but changelogs for major x.y kernel versions (x.y.z are only stable bugfix releases) are not available any more at kernel.org. This is one of the reasons why I maintain my own clone of the kernel git repository and build the missing changelogs myself.
If you are interested, I uploaded ChangeLog-3.5 here : http://www.plouf.fr.eu.org/bazar/ChangeLog-3.5
It contains all commits between 3.4 (not 3.4.113) and 3.5.

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#33 Post by bmx34 »

Hi

Here are some news about this issue :
I have found the faulty commit : 8e029fcdd8702719c9179317cae9ef84ebe7027e, on branch 'x86-trampoline-for-linus' of git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/tip/tip

The problem is that with this change, the NX flag is being activated. In my case, it appears that my 2 CPUs are slightly different :

Code: Select all

processor	: 0
vendor_id	: GenuineIntel
cpu family	: 15
model		: 4
model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.40GHz
stepping	: 1
microcode	: 0x5
cpu MHz		: 2800.000
cache size	: 1024 KB
physical id	: 0
siblings	: 2
core id		: 0
cpu cores	: 1
apicid		: 0
initial apicid	: 0
fpu		: yes
fpu_exception	: yes
cpuid level	: 5
wp		: yes
flags		: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc pebs bts nopl pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est cid cx16 xtpr
bogomips	: 6800.52
clflush size	: 64
cache_alignment	: 128
address sizes	: 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
power management:

processor	: 1
vendor_id	: GenuineIntel
cpu family	: 15
model		: 3
model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.40GHz
stepping	: 4
microcode	: 0xe
cpu MHz		: 2800.000
cache size	: 1024 KB
physical id	: 3
siblings	: 2
core id		: 0
cpu cores	: 1
apicid		: 6
initial apicid	: 6
fpu		: yes
fpu_exception	: yes
cpuid level	: 5
wp		: yes
flags		: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall lm constant_tsc pebs bts nopl pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 cid xtpr
bogomips	: 6800.71
clflush size	: 64
cache_alignment	: 128
address sizes	: 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
power management:
and while the first one supports the NX flag, the second does not... Seems that I got those CPUs just when Intel started to support the NX flag, and unfortunately, I have 2 different revisions.

I tried to rebuild a kernel without setting this flag, and it works fine. However, it is probably not great for security, as NX is all about malicious softwares...
Another workaround I found is to start with nosmp. In that case, I only use the first cpu, which supports NX, but I loose all the benefit of my dual cpu. Maybe physically switching my 2 CPU would also help, as the CPU 0 would then be the one not supporting NX... I did not had a look where the CPU flags are tested in the code.

I filled a bug report here : https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=207919

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#34 Post by CwF »

Intersting, good work. I've intentionally mixed some mult-sockets and as you found it is the lowest common denominator match if it works. Some more modern stuff should run asymmetrically with respect to clocks and multipliers, but features need to match.

The correct cpu should be cheap!

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Re: Can't install 64b version on Dual Xeon setup

#35 Post by p.H »

bmx34 wrote:I tried to rebuild a kernel without setting this flag, and it works fine.
You should be able to disable the NX bit without compiling a kernel, either in the BIOS settings, either by adding "noexec=off" to the kernel command line.
bmx34 wrote:However, it is probably not great for security, as NX is all about malicious softwares...
Not really about malicious software. Rather about software vulnerable to buffer overflow attacks.
bmx34 wrote:Another workaround I found is to start with nosmp. In that case, I only use the first cpu, which supports NX, but I loose all the benefit of my dual cpu.
You cannot worry about disabling the NX bit and want to use a processor which does not support it at the same time. You must choose between security and performance.

Note that nosmp will also disable multicore and hyperthreading on the active CPU. Probably not the best choice.

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