Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

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Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-08-31 15:16

Hello,
is there a way to install Debian, without a grub? Because after removing debian partitions, windows bootloader could break. It usually does, if you dual boot with linux! I want to boot just with f12! I don't want grub installed. Or if it was possible to install it to a second disk, where debian will be installed, so after removing debian partitions. Grub will be removed with it. Ubuntu for example puts grub to same EFI partition as Windows, which cause problems, after uninstall...

Thanks for help!
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-08-31 15:24

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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-08-31 20:26

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=139509

Wow that's seems very complicated! Also it requires to use live-cd to create this, but than when you will install Debian, it will want to create efi partition no? I don't understand in which order, you are supposed to do what and when you install debian, you will have already efi partition created, but before installation, which is weird... I don't even know how this goes together...

I was thinking no grub. I am not sure what grub exactly is. Each system needs bootloader to boot up OS right? But had installed parrot os and there was no grub at bootup, yet it created new efi partition on second disk - where i installed it. And i could boot up using f12 easily any time! So i deleted all parrot os partitions using diskpart and windows 10 was untact, i can boot normally! Problem is some linuxes put it on Windows 10 efi partition and when you delete linux, Windows will stop working. Is there a way to put bootloader on the second disk, where it will have it is own efi partition, so i can easily uninstall Linux, without damaging Windows 10 bootloader? Ideally something simple. There should be way to set up partitions during installation, but i am not sure if this is enough. I think i did that, when installed Ubuntu, yet grub was put on Windows 10 efi partition!

TL:DR - if i install debian on the second disk and create there efi partition - alongside Windows 10 (which is located on the first disk). Will than i be able to just delete all Debian partitions without damaging Windows 10 bootloader? Because Debian bootloader should be on the second disk than right? And i don't even want grub menu, i can boot easily with f12!

Also can you install Debian on second disk without issue? Ubuntu has a bug, if you don't disable all disks and install it on different disk, than a system disk, (where is your first system already), than it won't work. But i can't disable NVME in bios!
Last edited by tryagain100 on 2020-08-31 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-08-31 20:31

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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-08-31 20:34

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:https://wiki.debian.org/EFIStub

Wait what? I don't understand this article. How do you copy files, before installation? When i install Debian, it has to already create bootloader, or system wouldn't boot. This article talks about copying something, how am i supposed to do that, before installation, or during? I never heard of installation, which allows you to copy something during install.

"If you use a standard UEFI installation of Debian, you should copy the kernel and the initrd to /boot/efi."
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-08-31 20:44

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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-08-31 20:54

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apds03.en.html

Yeah but you have to have Debian already installed for this! Not to mention this complicates things, i was hoping for some simple solution. My point is: when i install it for the first time. It can already create grub on Windows 10 efi partition. I asked, if debian does that, or whether or not it creates it on its own efi partition. I wouldn't like break my Windows 10 install!!! And i am not sure even if you create manually efi partition on second disk meant for Debian, if it doesn't put something from grub onto Windows 10 efi partition. I can't find this information anywhere about Debian... I think Ubuntu does that!
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby sickpig » 2020-08-31 22:59

I don't suppose grub boots off the efi partition. That will just house a folder specific to your OS. You can have multiple OSes efi folders in your efi partition. They will not conflict with one another.

Grub gets installed on a device like /dev/sda or /dev/sdb. Also it will not screw with your windows boot in anyway. You can also install grub bootloader to a usb like /dev/sdb - (confirm by lsblk) if required.

I recently returned my old work laptop which had debian installed in efi. The efi partition had debian's own folder. While returning it I just had to delete the debian efi folder and securely erase the debian OS partition. Windows was the only OS on the laptop then and it could boot error free as if debian never existed on it.

@hoas - sorry for breaking protocol and not replying only in urls :)
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-08-31 23:06

sickpig wrote:I don't suppose grub boots off the efi partition. That will just house a folder specific to your OS. You can have multiple OSes efi folders in your efi partition. They will not conflict with one another.

Grub gets installed on a device like /dev/sda or /dev/sdb. Also it will not screw with your windows boot in anyway. You can also install grub bootloader to a usb like /dev/sdb - (confirm by lsblk) if required.

I recently returned my old work laptop which had debian installed in efi. The efi partition had debian's own folder. While returning it I just had to delete the debian efi folder and securely erase the debian OS partition. Windows was the only OS on the laptop then and it could boot error free as if debian never existed on it.

@hoas - sorry for breaking protocol and not replying only in urls :)

Are you 100% sure? I watched youtube video of debian install and there is no way to set where to install grub! I will put every partition on second disk, where is no system installed. Is that enough?
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby sickpig » 2020-08-31 23:48

Aloha!
grub-pc (applicable for bios) allows selection of disk for install.
While grub-efi allows <edit> efi installation <edit/> to a separate efi partition should you so wish. So you can have 2 efi partitions one for windows and one for debian. Not required but if you can if you want. In gparted if you are using a graphical install you can specify the efi partition.

tryagain100 wrote:I will put every partition on second disk

Why?
Just install it once. If you are using efi method then it will by default install where / is.

Alternatively, just install debian and choose not to install grub at all and use something like super-grub disk to boot off an usb (where super grub disk is installed)
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-09-01 00:08

sickpig wrote:Aloha!
grub-pc (applicable for bios) allows selection of disk for install.
While grub-efi allows <edit> efi installation <edit/> to a separate efi partition should you so wish. So you can have 2 efi partitions one for windows and one for debian. Not required but if you can if you want. In gparted if you are using a graphical install you can specify the efi partition.

tryagain100 wrote:I will put every partition on second disk

Why?
Just install it once. If you are using efi method then it will by default install where / is.

Alternatively, just install debian and choose not to install grub at all and use something like super-grub disk to boot off an usb (where super grub disk is installed)

I don't want debian taking space on nvme and because i am afraid it will damage something, why not just put it on second disk. It is not problem.
Strange i watched youtube install and there wasn't anything with grub.
I looked at debian install documentation and it is gigantic, i found in some section mention about grub and to see more details to refer to grub section, which i never found. There is also some lilo bootloader and read somewhere there is even something else, forget how it called.
So you say it will be fine, i take you for your word! I will install it to second disk and create there manually partitions using gparted and created efi partition.

I will try that tomorrow, thanks for your help!
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby sickpig » 2020-09-01 01:01

You are welcome.
I have installed Debian 4 times in efi with windows already installed on 3 separate laptops and never did once grub overwrite windows bootcode. So you should be okay as long as you don't format your existing efi partition which has windows efi folder in it!! Just point the installer to existing efi partition and specify the mount point as /boot/efi for your esp partition.

If you are not sure post an image of your intended installation partition/settings in gparted here to get a confirmation.

Also in the strangest of occasion if your windows bootcode gets damaged, dont panic. You can re-generate it with windows install usb and
Code: Select all
bootrec
&
Code: Select all
bcdboot
and then re-install grub.
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby tryagain100 » 2020-09-01 02:30

sickpig wrote:You are welcome.
I have installed Debian 4 times in efi with windows already installed on 3 separate laptops and never did once grub overwrite windows bootcode. So you should be okay as long as you don't format your existing efi partition which has windows efi folder in it!! Just point the installer to existing efi partition and specify the mount point as /boot/efi for your esp partition.

If you are not sure post an image of your intended installation partition/settings in gparted here to get a confirmation.

Also in the strangest of occasion if your windows bootcode gets damaged, dont panic. You can re-generate it with windows install usb and
Code: Select all
bootrec
&
Code: Select all
bcdboot
and then re-install grub.


I am thinking more about creating new efi partition for Debian on disk 2. I don't want mix it with Windows efi partition, it shouldn't be problem right? It wasn't at least for Parrot OS, which did this automatically. And it is based on debian. Even you say, it shouldn't damage windows boot record. But i would rather still put it on separate disk, if that would be fine. Otherwise partitioning shouldn't be problem, i don't need swap right? And than it is just root and efi partition. I will check also guide for partitioning, but i did that it past... I need Debian just for one thing, so i don't need long term best partition setup :)

I once did that to restore windows efi partition, but it was difficult, as all guides were for MBR. And it isn't 100% that it will always work!

Now it is late, i will read your answer tomorrow and than try it.

GREAT... I took you for your word. And now my main Windows partition is infested with debian... So if uninstall debian partitions, i won't be able to bootup. You said, it wouldn't do anything. And i even created separate efi partition on second disk. It didn't let me to set up, anything about grub during installation...

How do i uninstall this, i have black screen... It doesn't even work... I have no directory debian in windows 10 efi partition. Is enough to delete this directory? Not sure if it is possible. Please tell me how to uninstall this safely!!!

Never mind deleting debian folder on efi worked...
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby sickpig » 2020-09-01 21:13

tryagain100 wrote:Never mind deleting debian folder on efi worked...
mark the thread solved then by prepending the subject of your first post.
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Re: Install Debian without grub - Dual boot!!!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-09-02 16:04

tryagain100 wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apds03.en.html

Yeah but you have to have Debian already installed for this!

No you don't, that method can be used from the live environment.

tryagain100 wrote:It didn't let me to set up, anything about grub during installation

The Expert Installer option lets you skip the bootloader.

And your fears are for naught — one of the advantages of UEFI is that several operating systems can share the EFI system partition without conflict. I've had Windows, Linux and OpenBSD all sharing the same ESP without any problems.
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