Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious drama!

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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby edbarx » 2014-06-29 20:43

vbrummond wrote:All of this complicated crap is making me really want to leave Linux.

You are not alone to experience that feeling. The adage "keep it simple, stupid", apparently doesn't apply anymore. :roll: That is why Debianizing systemd should aim at preserving the simplicity and stability Debian is acknowledged with.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby lucas7 » 2014-06-29 21:06

I'm using Testing. How do I know if systemd is running? It is installed since I guess something I Installed in the past depends on it but how do I know if it is running as my init system as of right now?

edbarx wrote:
vbrummond wrote:All of this complicated crap is making me really want to leave Linux.

You are not alone to experience that feeling. The adage "keep it simple, stupid", apparently doesn't apply anymore. :roll: That is why Debianizing systemd should aim at preserving the simplicity and stability Debian is acknowledged with.


I'll admit I came here from Arch so I don't really hate systemd since it always worked for me. The best thing to do if you're just a user and not directly involved in Debian's development is to not read threads like this... it's the best for your sanity. I don't have the energy to keep up with the fighting... I get physically tired by it. I just ignore these things and hope for the best. (not an easy thing to do if you're really involved in Debian or linux in general though I know.) :|
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby TobiSGD » 2014-06-29 22:05

edbarx wrote:
vbrummond wrote:The adage "keep it simple, stupid", apparently doesn't apply anymore. :roll: That is why Debianizing systemd should aim at preserving the simplicity and stability Debian is acknowledged with.

I would guess it depends how you define simple. IMHO, consolidating commands so that you only have to use one command per administration task is making things simpler:
- journalctl for all things logging
- systemctl for all things related to daemons and runlevels
- timedatectl for all things related to time and timezones
- ...

Of course this involves learning new things, but it seems to me that this is indeed simpler than having to remember several commands per administration task.

But of course to each his own.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby tomazzi » 2014-06-29 22:20

TobiSDG: I fully agree with You. (this time)
Perhaps I should say it again: Yes, I know and I agree that Linux needs a service manager - the idea behind the systemd is good, but the implementation is faulty by design - and this is a problem.

If noone will take the effort to fix the code of systemd then it will become the SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) and the main target for attacks.
Two ways are possible: fix systemd or kick it out from Debian - convenience in administrating the system should not be the reason to sacrifice stability and security.

And finally (again): Debian testing is going to be the next stable release, and systemd is not ready for serious deployments - it can exist as an optional package but if it will become the default, it will blow up the stability and as a consequence - the reputation of Debian.

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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby vbrummond » 2014-06-30 07:43

There seems to be some mistake that I am unfamiliar with systemd. Actually for the most part I have no issue being an "end user" of it and have a lot of experience with it. My problem is that parts of it change often, also it being so integrated in the system could be potentially dangerous in the event of a critical bug, and I don't like cgroups. There used to be config options I used to make more sense of my systems resource management but they are deprecated and gone. I am confused when using it how libcgroup, systemd, and autogroups all interact. Do they stack? Are some ignored? This pervasive inclusion of control groups also breaks common unix utilities like nice. I am not a systemd hater, just the direction of Linux in general. I would never go back to Windows or similar. I still recommend Linux.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby edbarx » 2014-06-30 09:35

TobiSGD wrote:
edbarx wrote:The adage "keep it simple, stupid", apparently doesn't apply anymore. :roll: That is why Debianizing systemd should aim at preserving the simplicity and stability Debian is acknowledged with.

I would guess it depends how you define simple.

Anyone wanting to see reason, wouldn't resort to saying it depends how you define simple. Usually, politicians do that, but in that case, such a reaction can be understood, because more often than not, they have vested interests.
Last edited by edbarx on 2014-07-01 08:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby nimby » 2014-06-30 13:33

TobiSGD wrote:I would guess it depends how you define simple.

Simple = complex "under the hood" code to make it "simple" to the end user / RHEL sysadmin.
Simple = programs which do one thing and do it well, simple configuration files in plain text, shell scripts which can be examined, modified as necessary

I believe the end goal of systemd is to provide GUI admin tools (a la windows) and getting rid of rc scripts is one of the primary objectives to achieving this end.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby vbrummond » 2014-06-30 19:47

I find the /etc/rc.conf of freebsd simple enough. With a glance I know the default state of my system, including networking. It boots as fast as Linux or even faster, and I am sure I could optimize it further. I have had it fail because of improper syntax on my part. It just automatically boots to single user mode, I remount my root partition read-write fix the error and boot normally.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby nimby » 2014-06-30 20:04

You might want to have a look at Slackware, Crux or the BSDs.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby vbrummond » 2014-06-30 20:42

I have already looked at Slackware, Crux, and the BSDs. I have been around the block and back again, I am far beyond needing anyone's advice. If I am complaining about something it means I there is probably no good solution. I probably will have to hack one up myself.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby tomazzi » 2014-06-30 21:48

vbrummond: I'm sorry, but I didn't get your posts correctly (apparently)...

nimby is known to suggest just switching to alternative distro, but since THAT many of distros are dependant on Debian, it is obviously not a solution....

If we consider switching to systemd as a political decision, then all the results are "magically" become clear - Debian is (or maybe was) the most important system on servers. RedHat is selling mainly servers -> kill the Debian and "we" are fine... - what if they have a special version of systremd? (not broken by using calls to assert?)
Arch and others are not that significant - so they were functioning as a testing ground....

That's only suspiction, not covered by any proofs ;)
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby TobiSGD » 2014-06-30 23:44

nimby wrote:
TobiSGD wrote:I would guess it depends how you define simple.

Simple = complex "under the hood" code to make it "simple" to the end user / RHEL sysadmin.
Just like tools like vim, grep, awk, sed, ...
Simple = programs which do one thing and do it well,
systemd is collection of programs that do just that
simple configuration files in plain text,
systemd configuration files are plain text
shell scripts which can be examined, modified as necessary
Possibly, but one could argue that systemd's unit files are pretty much that, plain text interpreted by a binary program, like shell scripts are plain text interpreted by a binary program. But I give you one here, if that is your definition of simplicity.
I believe the end goal of systemd is to provide GUI admin tools (a la windows) and getting rid of rc scripts is one of the primary objectives to achieving this end.

Of course replacing rc scripts with systemd's config and unit files is a goal, that is not a secret. But I seriously doubt that Poettering, Red Hat or other distributions using systemd believe that running a GUI on a server is a good idea (for that matter, even Windows Server 2012 can be installed and used without GUI).

But as I said, it is a matter of definitions and it seems that when it comes to simplicity every one has its own definition.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby nimby » 2014-07-01 12:47

vbrummond wrote:I have already looked at Slackware, Crux, and the BSDs. I have been around the block and back again, I am far beyond needing anyone's advice. If I am complaining about something it means I there is probably no good solution. I probably will have to hack one up myself.

Sorry I had no idea you were so elite and already knew everything... :lol:
tomazzi wrote:nimby is known to suggest just switching to alternative distro, but since THAT many of distros are dependant on Debian, it is obviously not a solution....

None of those I listed is dependent on Debian. I see no problem in changing distro if one does not like what their distro of choice is doing. As an end user it's pretty much all you can do.
TobiSGD wrote:systemd configuration files are plain text

Sort of... but logging is binary as you know.
Last edited by nimby on 2014-07-01 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby vbrummond » 2014-07-01 16:43

Yes. I am weary of people telling me to try the grass on the other side (try Arch it feels faster!). I am not elite, but no one is ever able to help me with my questions and I am sick of answering theirs. I am willing to build something right myself rather than wait on everyone else.
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Re: Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious dr

Postby TobiSGD » 2014-07-01 21:47

nimby wrote:
TobiSGD wrote:systemd configuration files are plain text

Sort of... but logging is binary as you know.

No, not "sort of", they are plain text.
Regarding logging, it was pointed out already that you simply can attach a plain text logger to systemd, so that is a non-issue.
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