Xfce4 default for Jessie? systemd + GNOME + delicious drama!

[rikhard]

cool, once again Debian leads!

Debian.org enabled for SIP federation, who will be next? | DanielPocock.com http://goo.gl/cpr9h9

[KBD47]

Just don't depend upon Canonical/Ubuntu for upstream. Redhat is in it for the long haul, so is Debian, Ubuntu? Who knows.
I like Xfce and a good case can be made for it as a default, but KDE and Gnome seem the most full fledged Linux desktops though Xfce is close.

[rikhard]

Debian Technical Committee Votes For Systemd Over Upstart - Slashdot http://goo.gl/YUSXrR

--let's hope they have a plan b.....OpenRC - Gentoo Wiki http://goo.gl/9rRj6

because among other problems.... EWONTFIX - Broken by design: systemd http://goo.gl/U7nbeJ

[confuseling]

I don't understand Condorcet voting, but I've read in a few places that it can still go to FD (further discussion), and hence isn't final yet.

Besides which I think some people are going to call for a GR even if the TC has decided on systemd. Admittedly the GR (judging by previous polling) will go to systemd too, but I don't think the dust has settled yet...

[ziggybopbopdoo]

ugh I was hoping for something more basic and simple....openrc...but I figured being the newcomer was an automatic fail

personally I think this was a show, something to show the users that they thought about it and come to a reasoned decision rather than just jumped on the systemd bandwagon

that being said, I may just be a shithead

[sjukfan]

I hope they'll go with a systemD/openRC setup for kFreeBSD, hurd, and those of us who don't want systemD.

[confuseling]

Therefore, the resolution reads:

We exercise our power to decide in cases of overlapping jurisdiction
(6.1.2) by asserting that the default init system for Linux
architectures in jessie should be systemd.

Should the project pass a General Resolution before the release of
"jessie" asserting a "position statement about issues of the day" on
init systems, that position replaces the outcome of this vote and is
adopted by the Technical Committee as its own decision.

Bdale

From Debian ctte - I haven't seen a public archive yet. [edit - here it is https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/20 ... 00405.html ]

[dasein]

I knew this would suck.

(Pondering: Hmm... Slack as the last remaining refuge from built-broken systemd??)

This systemd crap is SNS on steroids. Not even the most rabid fanbois can point to a single specific problem that systemd "solves." Rather, they invoke their keen fashion sense and talk about "cohesiveness" (and similar nonsense).

[confuseling]

They haven't decided anything on implementation yet I don't think - the whole tight coupling versus loose coupling debate that Ian has been talking about.

The thing is, OpenRC from what I've gathered runs on top of SysVinit scripts. I'm not sure how much appetite developers are going to have for continuing to maintain those in the future.

So unless Upstart gets a functioning kFreeBSD port, or some other modern init system with simple dependency specifications comes to the fore, I could see this being the end of the other kernels in Debian proper. And perhaps ultimately Upstart too.

Times are a-changin'...

[sjukfan]

I could see this being the end of the other kernels in Debian proper. And perhaps ultimately Upstart too.

Only a small group have proposed to ditch the other kernels. Most have talked about a dual solution with systemD or upstart on the linux kerner and SysVinit or openRC och the others. I assume and hope that this will let those of us who don't want systemD to use the same as "the others".

If that won't work we'll just have to fork debian. I still like the name Beardix.

[TobiSGD]

The thing is, OpenRC from what I've gathered runs on top of SysVinit scripts. I'm not sure how much appetite developers are going to have for continuing to maintain those in the future.

It runs on top of the init program from sysvinit, but it uses its own declarative files for configuration, similar to Upstart/systemd.

[confuseling]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't really know much about OpenRC at all, though there's some info here, which agrees with what you're saying:

https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc

It actually does sound quite powerful, considering it's often regarded as the 'conservative option' out of the three.

[oswaldkelso]

It's very obvious that the issues with systemd's land grab and upstarts lack of arch support and (Canonical having copyright so can make their version non-free! ) Mean that a lot of folks don't want either. I suspect openrc will be in there somewhere at the end and with any luck and enough moaning Gnome won't be the default install disk.

By the way no need to run to Slackware My Dragora install uses runit, which is also packaged for Debian. Not that I've tried to install it, but some souls braver and more technical than me might like to try it.

http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/runit
http://smarden.org/runit/

[PeterB]

For those interested in the subject, but without the time to wade through the 6,800 emails on bug #727708,
there is a surprisingly good summary in 'Ace Attorney' format here.

http://aceattorney.sparklin.org/jeu.php?id_proces=57684
http://aceattorney.sparklin.org/jeu.php?id_proces=57899

[ziggybopbopdoo]

Not that I've tried to install it, but some souls braver and more technical than me might like to try it.

I am not tooo brave but I have never had a problem installing/using systemd, file-rc, and most recently openrc.

[jsalpha2]

I really like the way the Porteus download page is set up. http://build.porteus.org/ It is a fancy flowchart that determines what the end user wants.
I would add after each question, if you don't know, click here. The first question is Do you want 32-bit or 64-bit? Add if you don't know click here.

[confuseling]

I think openSUSE's Open Build Service used to do something a bit like that, though the interface was nowhere near that easy to use. Good idea though, if you've got the capacity.

Ubuntu have announced switching to systemd.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316

I suppose they could drop the CLA and see whether Upstart has legs of its own, but I suspect that would be tantamount to admitting the CLA was a bad idea in the first place...

[oswaldkelso]

First off a thanks to confuseling for keeping us up to date of this delicious drama. One of the most interesting and relevant threads on the forum for a while.
I wonder if this is the best thing that could have happened for Upstart. If I understand it correctly a fork could now stand a better chance of become the "defacto upstream" and hence new code at least not be covered by the Canonical CLA. Gradually old code could be replaced rendering the CLA of no or little relevance.
I'm not sure if this will turn out to be a real boost for systemd or a real opportunity for an upstart fork.

[TobiSGD]

By the way no need to run to Slackware

This is a trust issue. I do not trust the capabilities and intentions of Poettering, Sievers and the like to let them run such an important part of my systems. If Debian does I can't trust Debian also, simple as that.

[sjukfan]

As long as it's "only" Gnome that depends on on systemD in the form of loginD it shouldn't be that bad. I'm a bit worried about a requrement creep though. What's the next to require some part of systemD that you really can't run as stand-alone?

On the other hand, maybe something good can come out of this too. Maybe more people will help with the development of OpenRC now. It's still only in experimental but you can always install it in a virtual machine to test for bugs.