Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Gyokuro » 2014-08-09 18:48

The title is about Jessie's kernel not the Init system but in case that much users are against systemd what should be used instead so that the same people which are whining about systemd are happy again? The problem is the alternatives are not better as the elected one.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby vbrummond » 2014-08-09 18:53

While this is not a scientific evidence but it is still good enough to judge the mood of the users.

That does not make it a wrong decision. People will always complain about everything, no matter what, whether they understand it or not. The developers voted on the issue.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby confuseling » 2014-08-09 19:34

Further, it really isn't enough to judge the mood of anything other than a noisy minority, as you tacitly acknowledge by pointing out that it's not scientific. What proportion of users ever post on forums? Of those, what proportion engage in arguments, instead of just posting the occasional question? These people are anything but representative.

I strongly suspect if you did an actual poll, the winning answer would be something along the lines of "I don't really care, as long as my server works and is easy to administrate"...
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby dasein » 2014-08-09 20:54

It's impossible to argue with the clinically delusional.

(Just sayin')
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Linadian » 2014-08-10 02:22

Ima gunna chime in on systemd, I really don't care what they use, as long as;
1) it's not buggy
2) it's not insecure
3) it's not annoying (as in goofy or stupid to use, I know, poor choice of words but let's face it, some things are)
4) It's COMPATIBLE, I tend to like cross-platform, I consider that a good thing for the Linux world
5) Although I'm not a maintainer, easy to maintain would be good, who needs more headaches?

Wikipedia always has some interesting takes, check out the chart below the 'Controversy' section.

Here is freedesktop.org's systemd page.

Edit: Another nifty chart, scroll down a bit.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby hakerdefo » 2014-08-10 07:20

dasein wrote:It's impossible to argue with the clinically delusional.

(Just sayin')

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
My beliefs related to this thread,
1) Involvement of commercial corporations like Canonical and Red Hat with the vital operating system components like kernel and init system is a bad idea especially since those corporations will be direct gainers from Debian's decline. Links with the relevant data are in my previous post.
2) Discussions and polls in the various forums frequented by Debian users suggest that majority of the Debian users are not happy with systemd as default init. Again see my previous post for the relevant data.
3) Distributions with far less manpower and monetary resources compared to Debian can develope their own init system (OpenRC), forked bleeding OpenSSL (LibreSSL) and Debian with it's huge resources can't even maintain the kernel of the next stable release?!? This is for sure not because of lack of skilled manpower. There are plenty of Debian developers who are willing and qualified to maintain the kernel but they were not given the opportunity by the Debian leadership for reasons unknown.
Now if and when someone provides superior evidence against the above stated beliefs, I'll be on my way to the nearest psychologist.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2014-08-10 07:38

1. Already covered previously - "the evil corporations" have had their **** in your pie for a very long time, and it probably wouldn't exist as anything quite as usable (is 'tasty' pushing that metaphor too far?) without "them".

2. The number of uninformed users whining on forums because they read a blog telling them that the sky is falling is hardly a measure of the suitability of an init system.
There are indeed valid arguments both for and against adopting systemd as the default init for Jessie, and the people who get to decide - the devs - did.

3. Those distro's also support nowhere near the volume of software that Debian does, or in the integrated and usable manner of Debian's stable release.

If you think that there are queues of idle devs sitting around just waiting to be "allowed" to maintain a kernel that is unsupported by upstream, or to support yet another init system, then you should definitely be booking that appointment.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Randicus » 2014-08-10 09:16

hakerdefo wrote:A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
I am not attacking your ideas. In fact I agree with some of them. Like disagreeing with the rush to adopt systemd and contemplating out-sourcing kernel maintenance. However:
1) Involvement of commercial corporations
In itself is not bad. Each case must be examined before a conclusion can be made about a corporation's good or bad behaviour.

2) Discussions and polls in the various forums frequented by Debian users suggest that majority of the Debian users are not happy with systemd as default init.
It definitely shows that many users are (myself among them), but it does not indicate how big or small the proportion is.

3)Distributions with far less manpower and monetary resources compared to Debian can develope their own init system (OpenRC), forked bleeding OpenSSL (LibreSSL) and Debian with it's huge resources can't even maintain the kernel of the next stable release?!? This is for sure not because of lack of skilled manpower. There are plenty of Debian developers who are willing and qualified to maintain the kernel but they were not given the opportunity by the Debian leadership for reasons unknown.

Although I agree with the first part, I even mentioned at the beginning of the thread how amazing it is that a distro with the large resources Debian has does not have enough manpower for kernel maintenance :? , where do you get the idea from that there is an untapped pool of kernel maintainers? And that they are not being allowed to help? I doubt there are hordes of people capable of doing kernel maintenance.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby hakerdefo » 2014-08-10 10:25

@dilberts_left_nut
Those are your beliefs and I respect them but they can hardly be classified as superior evidence.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby hakerdefo » 2014-08-10 10:40

Randicus wrote:Although I agree with the first part, I even mentioned at the beginning of the thread how amazing it is that a distro with the large resources Debian has does not have enough manpower for kernel maintenance :? , where do you get the idea from that there is an untapped pool of kernel maintainers? And that they are not being allowed to help? I doubt there are hordes of people capable of doing kernel maintenance.

I'm not saying that there are hordes of developers capable of maintaining the kernel, I'm saying there are enough capable developers in Debian with skills and willingness to maintain the kernel.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Randicus » 2014-08-10 10:53

hakerdefo wrote:I'm saying there are enough capable developers in Debian with skills and willingness to maintain the kernel.

Given the size of the Debian project, there should be enough developers. That does not mean there are. (If not, that would be indicative of different problem.) In other words, you are assuming.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby hakerdefo » 2014-08-10 11:00

The “New Maintainer process” is a strange way to discourage people to contribute to Debian. It is particularly bureaucratic and a huge waste of time both for the applicant and his manager. It should be completely thrown overboard.
One needs a more scalable approach for trust and credibility that also enhances the technical knowledge for coding and packaging of the applicant.
NM is currently set in stone as any outside critics is automatically rejected. Young and energetic people are crucial for Debian and the long-term viability of the project, this is the reason why I’d consider the “New Maintainer process” as Debian’s biggest problem.

This one comes from Maximilian Attems. Who is Maximilian Attems? He has been the top contributor in Debian kernel team since the departure of Herbert Xu.
Judging from this it is no wonder that Ubuntu will be maintaining Jessie's kernel!
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Randicus » 2014-08-10 11:39

But that is not evidence that
there are enough capable developers in Debian with skills and willingness to maintain the kernel.
if they were allowed to. That is a (former?) developer's opinion of the general state of the distribution's development model. It would support (a little) an argument for a lack of maintainers overall, but is not evidence supporting a claim of a lack of kernel maintainers specifically. Although it does add a little weight to the argument, albeit more from extrapolation than proof. :)
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby Linadian » 2014-08-10 15:17

Holy wowzers Batman! And I thought I had a flammable tinfoil hat problem, lol...

Everybody seems to be forgetting Debian has an actual 'structure';

Debian copyright/software policies (see section 2.3 specifically), so license lockdown anything shouldn't make it in to any part of Debian. Anything new (software), being GPL, can and would be scrutinized, tweaked or rejected, etc.

Debian Constitution, it's not like there's a Darth Vader evil overlord, mind you, like any governing body there will be differences of opinion but when the smoke clears, nothing gets done without input or votes.

Now take a deep breath, go make a coffee and do some reading (see above links). If the sky does fall, my already ignited tinfoil hat will protect me. :wink: :lol:

As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no 'deals with the devil' and corporations want to blow money developing, then release software in to the wild as GPL, good, let 'em! Branding can be removed, so can glitches and spyware. People that work on Debian chose to because it's not corp license lockdown and profit/monopoly driven, I'm pretty sure if Debian's carcass started to rot, Debian developers would flee in droves, I'm hoping that's not the case, that would really suck for millions of people, me included.

I'm kinda sorry I started this thread now. On the other hand, better to hash things out than keep 'em bottled up (see Postal Worker Syndrome, lol :lol: ).

Edited for grammar and spelling.
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-08-10 19:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Ubuntu maintaining Jessie's kernel ~ discuss

Postby golinux » 2014-08-10 15:34

hakerdefo wrote:2) Discussions and polls in the various forums frequented by Debian users suggest that majority of the Debian users are not happy with systemd as default init.

Commercial users of Debian (or any other Linux system) far outnumber denizens of various Linux forums. It is commercial interests that are driving development. Sure they allow us to use their OS but they are not doing it for our benefit. We get what they decide to give us whether we like it or not.
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