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Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init system

User discussion about Debian Development, Debian Project News and Announcements. Not for support questions.

How would you vote?

In general, software may not require one specific init system to be PID 1.
39
83%
Package maintainers are strongly encouraged to add support for any init system, but are not required to.
3
6%
Debian packages may require a specific init system to be executed as PID 1.
2
4%
Things are working adequately and thus this General Resolution is not required.
3
6%
 
Total votes: 47

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pcalvert
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#16 Post by pcalvert »

fruitofloom wrote: To me it sounds, at minimum, weird, that after less than 4 years of development of systemd suddenly so much stuff seems to depend on it (or relate to it). udev, consolekit, what-not (for most of that i got no really understanding what *exactly* it does).
Yes, it seems very much like an invented problem.

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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#17 Post by koanhead »

I have "voted" for #1, for the following reasons.

First, I don't find the proposal as harmful as some would paint it. A few have implied or stated that a slew of RC bugs would be magically created, keeping lots of packages out of Jessie and delaying the release. I'm afraid that Jessie's release probably *will* be delayed, barring a miracle, but as far as I can tell bug reports don't magically create themselves. In most cases the creation of a bug report requires human input; in fact I'm not aware of any circumstance where automated creation of bug reports is used and I suspect it would be frowned upon. I think it's a good idea that people should be allowed to create a bug report on software that is suddenly broken for no obviously legitimate reason, or which attempts to replace a core component of one's system on upgrade.

In general, I think it's better for packages that actually require certain functionality to depend on the functionality itself, using the Provides: field, than to depend specifically on a 'magic-fairy-dust' package that provides everything to everyone and immediately obsoletes everything else.

If I hadn't chosen a side before reading the -vote thread on this GR, then I certainly would have been impelled to choose one by the tone of the arguments there. If you don't want to contribute to Debian, then you don't have to. If the project's policies mean your contributions don't make it into a release without certain well-specified changes, that's not the same as 'coercing' you to make those changes. To me, that sounds a lot like privilege speaking. If all the GNOME developers flee Debian en masse, that would be a Bad Thing... but it wouldn't be the end of Debian, and just maybe it would lead the project to work on amending the NM process and the path to DD-hood so that more people would be available to "do the work" certain people are constantly exhorting us to do.

EDIT:

To amplify further- some on the -vote thread have suggested that the debate is about systemd vs. sysvinit. This isn't the case. Hardly anyone is advocating for the continuation of sysvinit as default, let alone for deprecating systemd entirely in favor of sysvinit. Personally I think that systemd, for all its problems, is basically decent software and deserving of inclusion in Debian. I don't even have a particular problem with systemd-as-default-init, provided that I can still use other software with other inits. I've seen a few people both on -user and on this forum who advocate either for the removal of systemd as an option or a return to sysvinit as default. I don't think there's any reason to think that either of those positions is so popular that it's appropriate to paint anyone who is arguing pro-#1 as "pro-sysvinit" or "anti-systemd".

I don't know what compelling features GNOME-in-Jessie has due to its systemd dependency that GNOME-in-Wheezy lacks. Are these features so compelling that to voluntarily choose to eschew them (either by avoiding systemd (as I do) or by avoiding GNOME (as I also do) ) makes one a Luddite? If so, let's have some discussion about these features and why they are de rigeur. What is it that you can do with systemd that I can't do with sysvinit + OpenRC + other existing services?
Last edited by koanhead on 2014-10-29 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#18 Post by fleabus »

[removedby::fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 02:16, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#19 Post by saulgoode »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:Voting for 2 (doesn't want to work from my phone will try again later).
(edit: still won't work - "the submtted form is invalid" ... ? )
Were you able to resolve this, yet? It is concerning if you are unable to vote and if there is something that needs to be done by me to address this, please let me know.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#20 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Just tried again and no - same reply.
I note there is no other votes for 2 either.
edit: with a couple of different browsers and machines.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#21 Post by golinux »

saulgoode wrote:
dilberts_left_nut wrote:Voting for 2 (doesn't want to work from my phone will try again later).
(edit: still won't work - "the submtted form is invalid" ... ? )
Were you able to resolve this, yet? It is concerning if you are unable to vote and if there is something that needs to be done by me to address this, please let me know.
I had to change themes in order to vote properly.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#22 Post by anticapitalista »

golinux wrote:
saulgoode wrote:
dilberts_left_nut wrote:Voting for 2 (doesn't want to work from my phone will try again later).
(edit: still won't work - "the submtted form is invalid" ... ? )
Were you able to resolve this, yet? It is concerning if you are unable to vote and if there is something that needs to be done by me to address this, please let me know.
I had to change themes in order to vote properly.

More RedHat shenanigans?
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#23 Post by fleabus »

8)
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#24 Post by golinux »

anticapitalista wrote:
golinux wrote:
saulgoode wrote: Were you able to resolve this, yet? It is concerning if you are unable to vote and if there is something that needs to be done by me to address this, please let me know.
I had to change themes in order to vote properly.
More RedHat shenanigans?
Nah. This happened to me on Squeeze still on Iceweasel 10 something. Some of the forum templates are a little funky. Code probably not up to date with the latest phpBB or web standards . . .
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#25 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Cheers golinux - changed theme to prosilver and vote went through.
(Was redsilver3).
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#26 Post by golinux »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:Cheers golinux - changed theme to prosilver and vote went through.
(Was redsilver3).
Yup. redsilver3 was the one that hung me up too.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#27 Post by steve_v »

While I have no real objection to systemd _as an init system_, shoving so much not-realy-inits-job code into PID1 makes me profoundly uncomfortable.
Not being able to run a full DE without this way-more-than-just-init monstrosity in PID1 (or recompiling half the distro) makes me profoundly annoyed.
Slackware is where I began, if this carries on I may well return there. FreeBSD is also looking pretty tasty right now...
Have a wild guess which way I voted ;)
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#28 Post by anticapitalista »

golinux wrote: Yup. redsilver3 was the one that hung me up too.
But, was redsilver3 written by Poettering?
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#29 Post by saulgoode »

I made a mistake in my initial post of this thread in stating that the requisite discussion period for the General Resolution had not started. I took the "TBC" status for the discussion to mean that it was yet "to be confirmed" or somesuch, and that the page would be updated once the official discussion period commenced.

But recent postings on the debian-vote mailing list suggest that the discussion period either 1) is now completed or 2) has only a day or two remaining. In either case, it is recommended that those wishing to voice their opinions on the issue do so without delay.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#30 Post by saulgoode »

I posted my two cents to the mailing list.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/20 ... 00019.html
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- Brian Kernighan

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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#31 Post by s2pido »

With only one day remaining in the voting period, fewer than 500 (of the 1000+ DDs) have bothered to vote?
https://vote.debian.org/~secretary/gr_initcoupling/

Is such a low participation percentage typical?

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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#32 Post by saulgoode »

s2pido wrote:With only one day remaining in the voting period, ...
The voting period extends until the end of Tuesday, November 18th (UTC). https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003
s2pido wrote:... fewer than 500 (of the 1000+ DDs) have bothered to vote?
https://vote.debian.org/~secretary/gr_initcoupling/

Is such a low participation percentage typical?
I was thinking it was progressing rather well, given there are still about five days left. It is, at a minimum, nice to see that the issue won't just be decided by a handful of advocates (regardless of their position).
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- Brian Kernighan

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Re: Discussion for General Resolution on Debian's init syste

#33 Post by fruitofloom »

saulgoode wrote:
s2pido wrote:
s2pido wrote:... fewer than 500 (of the 1000+ DDs) have bothered to vote?
https://vote.debian.org/~secretary/gr_initcoupling/

Is such a low participation percentage typical?
I was thinking it was progressing rather well, given there are still about five days left. It is, at a minimum, nice to see that the issue won't just be decided by a handful of advocates (regardless of their position).
You mean like in most other distributions, say Slackware, huh? :-)
Kidding aside this sure is way better
(I like the joke, but it is really just that: a joke. Perhaps a stupid one).

Still convinced the very best is to vote with the feet to put some pressure on Debian, to show that *that* is not what one has in mind when thinking of Debian. That will make them think, and only that (replacing systemd with sysv and pinning *systemd* including the libs *and* installing popularity-contest is another option, less strong and way too much work, imho).
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