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Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differently

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jrflop28
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Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differently

#1 Post by jrflop28 »

Hi everybody,

I have an idea (I'm not here to criticize, don't worry).
Statement : More than 80 000 pending bugs recorded into the Debian bug tracking system, and it seems to be growing. Proportion of angry people about anything into the system is quite high

Here I will propose a solution that will probably make you first laugh, but you will quickly see that it is more serious than a "joke" or I don't know what. If this is possible, it would makes everything better and easier for everybody.

Today it's pretty difficult to see a difference between what is the Debian OS itself and the software that are available for it from apt-get.
If something is not available through apt-get, you have to build yourself your stuff alone and face the famous "dependency hell", so if you're like me, you hope that someone did like a ".deb" file for every possible distribution over the world (and mine is inside only because it's one of the biggest !), or a repository for your OS that must be put into your sources.list... but : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... meline.svg


The problem :

Thousands of softwares are placed into apt-get just because, even if it's not everytime the last version of them, it's almost the only one chance to get them working (for an average user), or not having hours of work in order to get it working (for experts), as there is approximately no interoperability between Linux distribution (cases likes Qt 5.4.1 and Firefox working fine without having anything to fight are just mind blowing because it is quite impossible in most situations). Years of testings are necessary to verify that they are not too buggy being together. That's why simply removing them from apt-get is not a good idea.

But look at what it gives : https://www.debian.org/Bugs/
I came across it because I encounter tens of them everyday (I'm absolutely not lying) on all my computers (see my topics for the worst of them). Few minutes ago, my desktop frozen because I added a shortcut on it. (CTRL + ALT + F1, login and reboot corrected the problem), 1 hour ago GParted failed create an ext4 partition on a USB 3 hard disk - GPT creation did succeed but not the rest...) so I was thinking I'm the best bug finder of all times but no. It would be a miracle if, as a pretty "new" user who explore everything, I spend 1 day without seeing any of it.

The situation cannot be under control as it's impossible for the courageous Debian maintainers Team to work on the OS himself, and on as many external packages at the same time without having growing tens of thousands of pending problems everywhere on more or less important parts of the system and external softwares : by continuing into the current way of manufacturing Linux distributions, it's going to be worst and worst as there is more and more software, versions and derivatives and developers (and bugs) on the planet (just see the graph).

It's like having to maintain every software of the planet and trying to place them into the OS without broking anything of the rest, because everything is part of the operating system and also run thanks to it.


The solution :

- Linux based OS manufacturers and maintainers teams should try to build together a only one standard base structure around the Linux Kernel that will be a common and will "never" change. As everything, it will be upgraded, but it should only be extended, fixed, repaired, but never modified. Customization and diversity should be possible on the way it's displayed but not in the way it's structured into hard disks and APIs. Improvement of this base should be universal, it shouldn't be different for every distribution because it would break any chance of interoperability (as it's the case today).

- Doing this, thanks to a perfect interoperability, maintainers could and should definitely stop taking care of every available software on the planet: it is not needed anymore and it will work without them, as for current application available for Windows and Mac OS. Linux distribution teams cannot focus on every software of the planet, and on the operating system itself at the same time. Of course existing softwares and project could be used to manufacture the OS himself (like management of every the hardware and the computer as System) but software for doing electronics, video games, programming and thousands of things that does no belong to the Kernel and Operating system, should get out of the OS teams works : they should focus on the first point, the rest should only be easier tests and exchanges with other's work for improvement.


The "Yes but" :

Nobody's going to do that today because it needs an too big change in people minds, or may be, we should have thought it differently from before, in the past. However the problem needs to be solved, and not beeing ignored anymore (if we don't agree on that point we should only discuss about it).
Also, people working with the actual way of designing Linux distributions for too long will certainly never agree to change anything.
Creating a new distribution is just going to make the problem worsen.

So if this change had to be done, it firstly need some preparation and agreement from everybody.
And there is my final question : is this kind of bouleversement in the mind of some people into the free softwares community ? Is there a separated project about it? (If separated from the biggest, it's lost in advance). Is it into the Debian projects or plans ?


PS :
https://www.debian.org/donations
This is important and I given some money few hours ago, but that is not the "action to take" for solving the problem that I'm discussing here. Even all my time, life and and money can do nothing for such a big needed change (it's not a brute force problem, it's a strategy problem).
I would not be surprised if the current huge effort trying to rebuild and test every program of the planet (during month and years) inside each distribution could be focused on a better and easier system with less efforts and money that today (in a way, a clever thing is often something amazingly simple that solve every problems for everybody).


So, currently, what is the planned future of Debian and Linux distributions in general facing the growing amount of bugs and work reality ?

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edbarx
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#2 Post by edbarx »

The solution :

- Linux based OS manufacturers and maintainers teams should try to build together a only one standard base structure around the Linux Kernel that will be a common and will "never" change.
That way, you will be giving the death sentence to all motivation as GNU/Linux is not some corporate body, but it is an aggregate of unrelated groups of developers working on a voluntary basis.

The 'problem', is it a problem, of anything different, is the fact that, it is different. If you remove diversity, you kill all motivation as volunteers are often unwilling to operate as if they are employed. This means, they want total freedom in what projects they choose, how they operate and to which distribution, if any they contribute.

Volunteers are not employees. Their freedom is at the heart of their motivation.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

jrflop28
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#3 Post by jrflop28 »

Thank you for this interesting answer.
So if something should globally change (if possible) it should take that into account. Not so easy !

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#4 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

tl;dr -- can you summarise it a bit please?

I'm too tired to read all that...
deadbang

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edbarx
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#5 Post by edbarx »

jrflop28 wrote:Thank you for this interesting answer.
So if something should globally change (if possible) it should take that into account. Not so easy !
It is not an interesting (stupid?) answer, but the usual answer given, as it reflects reality. DDs working on a voluntary basis enjoy their freedom of forming part with whatever developer group and project they feel like. Equating them with employees has never worked. Your suggestion has been posted on GNU/Linux fora before and evidently the situation remained the same.

Volunteers are volunteers. Anything more than that, does not reflect reality, but some Utopia, that is fit only to reside in a book of philosophy. The world was never and will never be a Utopia.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

jrflop28
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#6 Post by jrflop28 »

What I mean is that your answer is really interesting and well written - it says things from the heart and, as human beings, it's very important that those things are being said and taken into account.
(sorry if my english is not perfect or subjet to interpretation I'm not a native english speaker :lol: and as I'm pretty new and busy on thousands of things, I have a fresh look on all that but there is a lot of thing that I still don't know, even if it's may be already written somewhere)

Head_on_a_stick, some people could write an entire book trying to say things that I sometimes try to say in 1 or 2 big page, it is summarized as much as I can :(

EDIT / PS : what is "tl;dr --" ?
Last edited by jrflop28 on 2015-05-05 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#7 Post by stevepusser »

You propose using the Windows model for software. Yes, because that's been a shining example of security and how to fight bloat.

Debian does things the way they do for some good reasons. Shared libraries make things smaller and much more efficient, for example. I built Calibre 2.27 shared packages on Jessie, and they came to 20 MB compressed, where the static build from Calibre for the same version is 58 MB. Also you suggest that Mozilla provide all their packages--except they only build x86 packages, so what's someone with a Raspberry Pi going to do?

There are ongoing attempts to provide universal packages, such as "Snappy" on Ubuntu, or the zeroinstall-injector, but will they provide the many architectures that Debian supports?
MX Linux packager and developer

jrflop28
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#8 Post by jrflop28 »

stevepusser wrote:You propose using the Windows model for software. Yes, because that's been a shining example of security and how to fight bloat.

Debian does things the way they do for some good reasons. Shared libraries make things smaller and much more efficient, for example. I built Calibre 2.27 shared packages on Jessie, and they came to 20 MB compressed, where the static build from Calibre for the same version is 58 MB. Also you suggest that Mozilla provide all their packages--except they only build x86 packages, so what's someone with a Raspberry Pi going to do?

Hi stevepusser,

In fact you say that I'm taking Windows a model but I'm really talking about Linux as the open source projects it is. I feel that making things in a more standard way gives something easier to use for software developper and will give the possibility for Debian maintainers not to loose all their time on making external softwares working.

Of course apt-get is usefull and I also use it. There is cases it is simply better than anything else but in much cases it's true that I would think things would be easier if software developpers makes something really separated to my OS manufacturer's work. It the way Windows actually does but it's not the reason why I find it better, I find that more "standard" parts into the OS could be a better idea because of easiness to have a better system. I now understand thanks to edbarx that this is not a good solution for everybody, and why. But we are there to discuss, I try to gives idea for me and for everybody too.

Your remark about fighting bloat is interesting as I fight them on Windows computers (sometimes by a fresh install).
The problem is, in a way, that difficulty to install bloatware is the same difficulty that for installing softwares, I'm not sure it is really good at the end.

jrflop28
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#9 Post by jrflop28 »

I'm going to sleep and I will summarize your remarks as they point out things I did't notice before.

Please dont be cruel with me I'm just trying (may be not succeeding!) to give good ideas and positive things :)

(Feel free to explain your point of view about what should be done ideally, I'm here to construct and understand, not to criticize)

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dasein
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#10 Post by dasein »

jrflop28 wrote:...I'm just trying (may be not succeeding!) to give good ideas and positive things :)
Your heart may be in the right place, but there's several things you need to think about...

(But before I forget, "tl;dr" is short for "too long; didn't read")

First off, the development model you're envisioning doesn't actually translate into fewer bugs. People have been searching for a "silver bullet" for decades: different models, different languages, different QA tools, just to name a few. But bugs exist because of logic errors, laziness, sloppiness, fatigue, etc., none of which can be "fixed" with a tool or model. If you check the bug count of any moderately large or complicated piece of software, you'll find that the number of bugs is largely a function of the sheer size of the project. (It's perfectly sensible if you think about it: mode code=more opportunities to screw up=more bugs.)

Second, for good or ill, Linux seems to be moving in the general direction you envision. Some folks (including me) think that it's an insanely bad idea; others think it's the best thing since beer in a bottle. And we'll know for sure in 10 or 20 years. All you have to do is wait.

Then too, a few standards similar to the ones you envision already exist. As edbarx noted, there's several practical impediments to their implementation, and FOSS has no "enforcement" capability. But even if those impediments didn't exist, the end result is still fairly predictable: (obligatory xkcd comic link: https://xkcd.com/927/)

I hope it doesn't seem to you like I'm trying to "steal your joy." Just trying to offer you things to think about.

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fireExit
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#11 Post by fireExit »

jrflop28 wrote:Statement : More than 80 000 pending bugs recorded into the Debian bug tracking system
Well, no.
In fact, at the moment, there's 784 401 recorded bugs in the BTS (as of time of writing)
The 100 000 mark was passed on 2001 and as you can read celebrated!

More interesting is
Image
https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
The challenge is not the bugs we open, is the ones we can't close.

jrflop28
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#12 Post by jrflop28 »

Hi everybody,

Honestly I held my breath before entering here :lol: but I'm reassured.

dasein, thank you very much for your detailed answer, message like yours are really the welcome to me :) and to others too, I guess.
In all things that you say, you're also pointing out the fact that it's complicated to agree on "is more standardized system better?", I didn't realized about that. I think it's because some expert people, being accommodated for many years with what we have today, to get around every beginers "problems" (at take profit of it as there is less bloatwares for example) make the difference of point of views between the ones who like it and the ones who dislike it because they find it currently a bit complicated and frustrating (but I'm may be wrong).
Of course, if something should change, it should not, above all, be another different distributions that make things still more different between them :D I'm not surprised it is what happened.

fireExit thank you too for your answer but I'm becoming to feel like it's possible not to agree on what the numbers are saying (and may be we simply cannot, just look at politics ^^ but I hope I will understand and there will be no disagreement). But I will try to understand that, as I'm likely to have misunderstood something as I just saw 1 value saying more than 80 000 bugs and I meet several bugs everyday (is 80 000+ the current amount of pending bugs including not release critical bugs ?).


Summary here of remarks and criticism about the idea I written:

-> I write too long texts (let's improve it!)
-> Developers of free softwares are only working because they are free of doing that without constraint and dictatorship, freedom is what lead them. Should be understood : a too constrained system structure, too standard that should be used by everyone in order to have interoperability, will take the risk to make many contributors running away in the quest of a lost freedom (it's quite likely, as human beings never want to lose things they got in the past, above all when it's freedom)
-> A too standard operating system's structure that could permit to every software being compatible with quite every distribution is making good and bad things easier (as viruses, bloatwares and spywares infesting your working environment).
-> apt-get gives things that could be difficult to obtain without it (did someone said "the universal operating system") so if my idea is to make it impossible, I should go away and never return (I didn't think about that but yes, apt-get should absolutely make things available for every platform as without this Debian possibility, it's quite lost in advance)
-> there will probably be as much bugs (so problems would be outside but still existing)
-> It's possible that we dont see, judge and understand "numbers" the same way, as for release critical bugs, there is not 80 000+ bugs and it doesn't seems to be growing through last 6 years


Feel free to notice me if I misunderstood something into my summary
I'm not sure it is really complete regarding all you said but it is just to list "points" that should be taken into account to throw my idea into garbage ^^ or at least, make it needing to be improved or different.

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#13 Post by tomazzi »

Well, I'm actually happy when I'm reading about Debian bugs - bacause that means that Debian is actualy registering and trying to fix the bugs...
Far worse situations is when some company wants *Your* money *after* they've sold You a shitty product... ...a product of extremely low quality, which needs over 20 thousants of a "fixes" *after* it have been sold...
Of course they don't give a crap about You (as the casual user) - they're only interrested in sucking money from big companies, which are leaded by lazy morons, who are ready to pay for nothing...

Regards...
Odi profanum vulgus

Randicus
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#14 Post by Randicus »

jrflop28 wrote:- Linux based OS manufacturers and maintainers teams should try to build together a only one standard base structure around the Linux Kernel that will be a common and will "never" change. As everything, it will be upgraded, but it should only be extended, fixed, repaired, but never modified. Customization and diversity should be possible on the way it's displayed but not in the way it's structured into hard disks and APIs. Improvement of this base should be universal, it shouldn't be different for every distribution because it would break any chance of interoperability (as it's the case today).
In other words; every distribution uses the same operating system, with the only differences being the number of packages available. What would be the purpose of having more than one distribution? The end result of your model would be one Linux OS. Then you would complain about the lack of choice.

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#15 Post by GarryRicketson »

The end result of your model would be one Linux OS. Then you would complain about the lack of choice.
And who decides which Linux will be the "ONE" linux, The "ubuntuers" would say it must be "ubuntu", the "minters", would say it must be "Mint", and so on,....
the Linux Kernel that will be a common and will "never" change. As everything, it will be upgraded, but it should only be extended, fixed, repaired, but never modified.
So how do you plan on stopping me or anyone else from "modifying" , the kernal, or any other part of our OS, ?
By making it "closed source" ?
This is important and I given some money few hours ago, but that is not the "action to take" for solving the problem that I'm discussing here.
It is only important in your
tiny little egoistic mind. You figure since you donated some money, that gives you the right
to come in here, starting what is basicly just a troll thread, totally pointless, rant.
And it is way to long to read all of it.
I like Debian the way it is, open source, and I can modify any part of it I choose, as for all these "bugs" you encounter every day,...I use my system every day, 2 different versions of debian, and another "distro" very much debian based, and so far have not encountered even 1
real "bug". So I guess, a lot of these "bugs", probabley depend on who the user is,the users level of "competence", and what kind of equipment they are using, and many other factors. Your idea, in my opinion, is garbage.
---------------------
Edited: A better idea, and no long "mindless" rant needed. If you really want to help , why don't you spend your time trying to help fix the known "bugs"and problems within the distro of your choice , instead of wasting it starting troll threads,and rants, that also waste every body elses time. If you do not know enough about programing, etc to do that, spend your time learning. If all you really have going for you is lots of money, make donations, so people
that are able and willing to do the work, you are unable to do, have the equipment,resources, etc. And if and when you do encounter a real "bug", take the time to
report it to the appropriate persons.

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#16 Post by hudson »

Personally, I think I got a killer system that is rock solid out of Debian Jessie. It takes time to select the right software and configure it correctly, but it really rocks when you get it right.

As far as bugs go, you are talking about open source packages developed outside of Debian. Debian could use its bully pulpit and shame the upstream developers more...make a public page of the most annoying bugs. For me, I didn't like that Thunar lost data when moving files to a ntsf drive, or that gtk3 apps don't work in Fluxbox (gtk3's fault, I think). But those are all upstream issues, not projects that Debian develops.

So, Debian could put more effort into shaming developers who deliver buggy work. Another idea would be like the police do and have a heat map of the amount of complaints for each package. Even setting thresholds and having real penalties...like not being included in the next stable release.

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#17 Post by edbarx »

As far as bugs go, you are talking about open source packages developed outside of Debian. Debian could use its bully pulpit and shame the upstream developers more...make a public page of the most annoying bugs.
A distribution like Debian wouldn't accept any package that doesn't meet its criteria for stability and reliability. In fact, projects have to mature before they are finally allowed in. Debian is intelligent enough not to use finger-pointing to shrug off its responsibilities.

As a result of what I wrote now, some may feel an urge to mention the systemd happenings that characterised the last year. Although I have my reservations about the time systemd was accepted into Debian, my previous paragraph should be understood in the light, that one imperfect decision, does not make the whole team unfit for their job.

In the end, the sediments burying the truth are eroded, exposing where genuine effort is.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

tomazzi
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#18 Post by tomazzi »

edbarx wrote:(...) As a result of what I wrote now, some may feel an urge to mention the systemd happenings that characterised the last year. Although I have my reservations about the time systemd was accepted into Debian, my previous paragraph should be understood in the light, that one imperfect decision, does not make the whole team unfit for their job.
"nice" - just go with the flow...

May the broken apple be with You... ;)

Just kidding ;)

Regards...
Odi profanum vulgus

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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#19 Post by edbarx »

tomazzi wrote: "nice" - just go with the flow...

May the broken apple be with You... ;)

Just kidding ;)
Tomazzi, you naughty boy! :)

Code: Select all

void examine_apple_for_breakages()
{
  while (1) {
      if (found_broken_apple() != 0) {
          cut_apple_to_pieces();
          find_a_horse();
          feed_apple_to_horse();
          if (horse_bolts()) break;
       } else {
          continue_quality_controlling_apples();
          take_note_of_incidence();
          if (incidence_good_apple() > min_quality) {
             conclude_apple_good(); 
             else hope_for_the_best();

          return;
        }
      } 
   } 
}
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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hudson
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Re: Idea: Linux based OS should be made (slightly?) differen

#20 Post by hudson »

edbarx wrote:
Debian is intelligent enough not to use finger-pointing to shrug off its responsibilities.
I was just suggesting that a little more finger pointing and throwing its weight around would be a good thing. That could go right alongside triming down the number of packages from 40,000 to maybe 25,000 really good ones :lol:

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