Debian PPAs (please no)

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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-07-28 08:04

Deshapria wrote:HOAS, you mentioned a certain distro. I read in that forum that those developers use Ubuntu apps, fonts etc in that Debian based distro, and even the new webpage would use Ubuntu Mono font. It appears that Ubuntu stuff is not that terrible.

I take it that you are referring to this post:
twoion wrote:On a special note: We have also included the ttf-ubuntu-font-family package from the Ubuntu repository (version 0.80-0ubuntu6 as 0.80-0ubuntu6.1) which is as of now missing in Debian due to Debian license and/or motiviation issues (see the bug report for details). We are going to use the Ubuntu Mono font on our future web page (besides it being an excellent font), so we decided to ship it.

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 35#p435835

As you can see, it refers to a *font* (not a binary package) and it has been repackaged by an extremely experienced member of the development team *in a Debian chroot system* (if you even understand what that means...)
"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher."
— Antoine de Saint Exupéry, Terre des Hommes (1939).
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Deshapria » 2015-07-28 10:00

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:As you can see, it refers to a *font* (not a binary package) and it has been repackaged by an extremely experienced member of the development team *in a Debian chroot system* (if you even understand what that means...)

Oh, my!
"if you even understand what that means..."
We are very brainy in the BLimey land, aren't we? :) I am from Asia. Chroot? We chew betel over there, not roots. :)

This is only a discussion, and a point of view, a difference of view, not an argument, so calm down.
Come on, do I have to agree with everything you say?
Remember, you gave me an idea? And, I installed Iceweasel 41 my own way. Not your way, and that Iceweasel works very nicely! :)
Its the end result what we want, right?
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby fireExit » 2015-07-28 10:23

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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Deshapria » 2015-07-28 11:12

fireExit wrote:The original proposal


Thank you! :)

For whatever reason, people need, whatever the latest version of php/mysql/apache/nginx/selectyourpoison...


That's exactly the matter. :)
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby stevepusser » 2015-07-28 17:49

Even worse, the Debian repository also contains the Ubuntu keyring, ubuntu-dev-tools, and the Ubuntu packaging guide! Obviously a CONSPIRACY!

There's a big difference between using compiled Ubuntu binary packages and using the source files to build binary packages on Debian. It's rather interesting to learn how to do it.

For what it's worth, the MEPIS and MX 15 repos are backport/import repositories, and contain a lot of packages rebuilt from PPA sources, though I find it much quicker to just download the source files, extract them, and rebuild the packages, instead of going to the hassle of editing my sources, reloading, downloading, re-editing, and reloading again. Wheezy-based Plank packages are in the MEPIS 12 test repo, and Jessie-compatible MX 15 Plank packages are in the MX 15 test repository: http://main.mepis-deb.org/mx/testrepo/p ... t/p/plank/
The MX Linux repositories: Backports galore! If we don't have something, just ask and we'll try--we like challenges. New packages: GIMP 2.10.2, Pale Moon 27.9.3, wine-staging 3.10, QuiteRSS 0.18.11, Linux kernel 4.17, Krita 4.0.4
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-28 22:59

I think, that PPA's are not a good idea - why? - PPAs might become a source of dangerous/buggy software or even viruses.

Most of the casual users won't see a difference between Debian and PPA packages - so the quality of PPA's will influence the reception of Debian and the opinions of its quality/stability - expect thousands of topics where the users of PPAs will demand a support on Debian forums ;)

Regards

PS.
Sometimes I need a new version of some program - and You know what? - there's a 20 years old way (or maybe older) to do this: compililng from the source ;)

It's far better and more safe than installing a binary blob - and on the other hand, it's far easier to test unstable/experimental software in a chroot or in a VM.
;)
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Deshapria » 2015-07-29 11:38

tomazzi wrote:PS.
Sometimes I need a new version of some program - and You know what? - there's a 20 years old way (or maybe older) to do this: compililng from the source ;)

It's far better and more safe than installing a binary blob - and on the other hand, it's far easier to test unstable/experimental software in a chroot or in a VM.
;)


You can use your Archive Manager to open the .deb package, whether it is Debian or Ubuntu, see what controls it, and why, then decide to install it. Most of the dependencies could be found in Debian repos, but some can't be found, so you'd have to use such from Ubuntu repos or Launchpad. I took Plank as a example of a very nice, beautiful and simple app, which the users would like to use. If we can get it here--MX 15 test repository: http://main.mepis-deb.org/mx/testrepo/p ... t/p/plank/--already Debianized, then we are sort of having a User-Created-Archive, a Debian PPA. All, you have to is download the .deb package from Mepis and install it without fear. :)
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Randicus » 2015-07-29 22:37

I took Plank as a example of a very nice, beautiful and simple app, which the users would like to use.
The users? That means everyone. A few users would be more accurate. How few? Should every application in existence be in the repository? That is infeasible. There are already 40,000+ packages in Debian's repo. An important factor to remember is that a system with an advanced package manager has a benefit and a disadvantage. A tool like apt makes package management very easy, but it is limited to packages made for it. (in the OS's repository) That is why the repository is so large. The alternative is a system that allows anything to be installed, but leaves package management to the user. (Install everything from source and track down dependencies.) There is a trade-off; easy to use with limited selection, or difficult to do with unlimited selection. If you believe a certain application that few people use would be a good addition to the repository, you can create a Debian version and offer to maintain it. It would probably be added to the repo.
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby spacex » 2015-07-30 12:35

As others say, there are already several ways to do this without opening up a can of worms with PPAs in Debian.
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Deshapria » 2015-07-31 09:12

Randicus wrote:
I took Plank as a example of a very nice, beautiful and simple app, which the users would like to use.
The users? That means everyone. A few users would be more accurate. How few? Should every application in existence be in the repository?...


I found that the Debian future--sid--has it.
Add to the sources.list
Code: Select all
deb http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ sid main contrib

then,
Code: Select all
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install -t sid plank


Anyone/everyone can have it. :)

It appeared first as PPA in Launchpad, and now in Debian future.
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Randicus » 2015-07-31 09:45

Deshapria wrote:Anyone/everyone can have it. :)
Not true.
Add to the sources.list
Code: Select all
deb http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ sid main contrib
If one wants to use Sid or a mixed Testing-Unstable system. I would strongly advise those new to the system to not do such things with a Stable system.
Code: Select all
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install -t sid plank
That command will only work for those using sudo. :wink:
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby spacex » 2015-07-31 11:32

To be fair, we probably would advice against novices doing much at all to their system. There are quite a few of you that seems to always assume that all stable debian-installs are vital and should always be conserved as stable. But stable Debian installations exists in all kinds of scenarios, even just to be played with.

It's perfectly fine to mess up a Debian-system as long as it isn't vital or cause loss of important data and stuff like that. You guys really should stop feeling hurt on behalf of a OS-installation. Debian Stable doesn't have emotions, and it's fine to do whatever with it. Mess with it, play with, break it and bork it.

People should do whatever the f... they want to do with it, and there is no right or wrong. Only what do you want to do, and why? We should never tell anyone that it's wrong to do anything. We should simply make sure they are aware of the risks involved. Mix sources? Sure, do it. It's all fine, as long as you know the risk.

Lighten up. Stop being so serious. It takes 15 minutes to reinstall, and with proper backups, no harm is done for a common "home-user" or anyone else with a install to spare. Try whatever. Play and mess around. Only then, will people understand why they actually shouldn't do this and that.

We people are unfortunately designed in a way that makes us have to experience things for our selves. We do not learn from other peoples faults and mistakes. We have to make them ourselves.
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Deshapria » 2015-07-31 12:22

Randicus wrote:
Deshapria wrote:Anyone/everyone can have it. :)
Not true.

True, true...there is a ready made live iso available for a long time. The guy had been doing this with Ubuntu, then with Wheezy and now with Jessie. Try it here; http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=08976 Its also efi ready. :)
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-31 22:26

excuse me, hello? - what is so definitelly new in a Plant dock?
What I can say - it's just another dock, not much different from cairo-dock, and many, many other alternatives...

I mean, there are thousants of new applications around - but that doesn't mean that just because someone have written something, it must be necessarily included in the repository. I would say that it's rather the opposite case - it's actually better when such a fresh app is available only by compiling it from the source - because this forces people to *think* before installing AND applications compiled from source usually (in many cases) can work with older libraries - that is, You don't have to break Your system just to get such app working.

Example: I'm currently using 6 versions of WINE, each of them is running in a separate schroot - starting from v1.3.23 (the last good one, btw) - none of package mangers can handle this - installing in an /opt directory is very much like using a VM.. ;)

Regards.
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Re: Debian PPAs (please no)

Postby Randicus » 2015-07-31 23:46

spacex wrote:We should simply make sure they are aware of the risks involved. Mix sources? Sure, do it. It's all fine, as long as you know the risk.
Which is the problem. The people doing it do not know the risks. They show up on a forum asking why the system is not working properly. And there is no excuse for it. Anyone who has spent five minutes reading the basic information on debian.org will know it is a bad idea.

We should never tell anyone that it's wrong to do anything.
Bullshit. If something is wrong, it is wrong. Tell the person they can do it if they want to, but it is wrong, and if they choose to do it do not come back asking how to fix the mess, because they were warned.

Lighten up. Stop being so serious. It takes 15 minutes to reinstall, and with proper backups, no harm is done for a common "home-user" or anyone else with a install to spare. Try whatever. Play and mess around. Only then, will people understand why they actually shouldn't do this and that.
You assume everyone uses their computer as a toy and has both the spare time and desire to continually re-install and configure.

We do not learn from other peoples faults and mistakes. We have to make them ourselves.
Bullshit again. A person that cannot learn by observing his/her surroundings (including the successes and failures of others) has a high probability of being removed from the gene pool.
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