Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby golinux » 2017-02-26 19:41

arochester wrote:golinux? Is that the same golinux on the Devuan site?
A Devuan member since Feb 9, 2015 6:28pm https://git.devuan.org/golinux
and a Devuan Developer https://devuan.org/os/team/
---That'll be unbiased then?

(It's a myth that lemmings jump over a cliff e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming .)
Isn't that obvious? Not claiming to be unbiased. Just have a point of view. But your response is a red herring and missing the point I was trying to make.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-02-26 21:11

by pcalvert » So if I install Debian and then reconfigure it the way I want, it's not Debian anymore?

Phil


No, that should be obvious. Debian is open source, and not only can you configure
it any way you want, you also can modify it, etc.
But if , after configuring, modifying, adding to or taking away, what ever, when
the persons start calling it another distro, and distributing it ,using a new name, then it is no longer Debian,...this applies to Devuan, Ubunto, Linux Mint, etc,.... All are based on Debian yes, but they have been changed significantly, and the developers have chosen to use another name, thus creating another distro.

If you are using Debian, and configure it to suit your needs, it is still Debian.
When you start mixing in packages ,etc that are from other distros, it is no longer Debian, but a mix. known as a "frankendebian",... https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

There is nothing wrong with developing another distro , for what ever reasons,
in this case , the people that are developing Devuan , did not like the idea of Debian using systemd, they think it is a mistake, so they started what is called a "fork", and now it is another distro, based on Debian, but without systemd.

Personally I don't think the developers of Debian just accidentally started using systemd instead of systemV , by mistake, I think there was a lot of planning involved, and they moved into systemd intentionally, not by mistake.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby cpoakes » 2017-02-26 22:43

GarryRicketson wrote:If you are using Debian, and configure it to suit your needs, it is still Debian. When you start mixing in packages, etc that are from other distros, it is no longer Debian, but a mix. known as a "frankendebian",... https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

I think you misquote DontBreakDebian. A frankendebian mixes packages between releases, not distros. Don't mix jessie with stretch or sid. I have packages installed on my Debian jessie system from both MX-15 and BunsenLabs distros precisely because they are designed with and for jessie. They specifically use the repos for jessie as their base, build packages with the jessie build system, and follow Debian conventions for packaging. Not any less Debian than compiling it myself or any harder than using jessie-backports.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby acewiza » 2017-02-26 22:53

pcalvert wrote:
acewiza wrote:Point being, they are using Debian to do their own thing, not unlike Mint, Ubuntu, et al in this respect. Carving systemd out of Debian does not constitute "using Debian" any more than taking the trans fat out of margarine makes it like "using butter."

So if I install Debian and then reconfigure it the way I want, it's not Debian anymore?

Of course it is. But if you install Devuan, it never was Debian - before you even boot into it the first time, no matter how much you want it to be.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby golinux » 2017-02-26 23:08

acewiza wrote:But if you install Devuan, it never was Debian - before you even boot into it the first time, no matter how much you want it to be.
Devuan is what Debian was before It went to the dark side. ;)
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby acewiza » 2017-02-27 00:17

Well at least we are clear on what Debian is and is not. We also recognize the fact that lots of people are using all kinds of Debian derivatives, which are not by definition, "Debian." Last but not least, we are aware of a small subset of butthurt people not clear on exactly what they are using due to the peculiar, irrational fear of a certain init system.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby golinux » 2017-02-27 01:19

acewiza wrote:Last but not least, we are aware of a small subset of butthurt people not clear on exactly what they are using due to the peculiar, irrational fear of a certain init system.
That subjective judgment is so far off base. And will always be so no matter how many times it is repeated. Let me say it again because you haven't 'gotten' it yet. systemd is NOT, I repeat NOT just an init system. If it were, there would be no Devuan.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-02-27 01:52

cpoakes wrote:
GarryRicketson wrote:If you are using Debian, and configure it to suit your needs, it is still Debian. When you start mixing in packages, etc that are from other distros, it is no longer Debian, but a mix. known as a "frankendebian",... https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

I think you misquote DontBreakDebian. A frankendebian mixes packages between releases, not distros. Don't mix jessie with stretch or sid. I have packages installed on my Debian jessie system from both MX-15 and BunsenLabs distros precisely because they are designed with and for jessie. They specifically use the repos for jessie as their base, build packages with the jessie build system, and follow Debian conventions for packaging. Not any less Debian than compiling it myself or any harder than using jessie-backports.

I am not a fan of full quoting , but in this case I am going to, it is the easiest way,..
Anyway,..no , actually I did not quote the wiki, but refer to it,...in any event now,
here is a quote :
From : https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

Repositories that can create a FrankenDebian if used with Debian Stable:

Debian testing release (currently stretch)

Debian unstable release (also known as sid)

Ubuntu, Mint or other derivative repositories are not compatible with Debian!
Ubuntu PPAs


Sure looks like it says both, releases and other distributions,...but any way,
your right and I am wrong, or maybe I am misinterpreting what it says.
Even though I am wrong, and have no clue about anything, my experience has been it does not usually go well to do either one, mix repos and mix releases,...

For those that don't want to follow the link, and read it all:
Don't make a FrankenDebian

Debian Stable should not be combined with other releases. If you're trying to install software that isn't available in the current Debian Stable release, it's not a good idea to add repositories for other Debian releases. The problems might not happen right away, but the next time you install updates.

The reason things can break is because the software packaged for one Debian release is built to be compatible with the rest of the software for that release. For example, installing packages from Jessie on a Wheezy system will also install newer versions of core libraries including glibc. This results in a system that is not Wheezy or Jessie but a broken mix of the two.

Repositories that can create a FrankenDebian if used with Debian Stable:

Debian testing release (currently stretch)

Debian unstable release (also known as sid)

Ubuntu, Mint or other derivative repositories are not compatible with Debian!
Ubuntu PPAs


They don't specify which other derivative repositories,
other derivative repositories are not compatible with Debian!

From what you are saying, then the MX distro is a exception, there a 100's of others though. Some maybe are compatible. But any way, to avoid another pointless argument, your right, and I'm wrong.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby Danielsan » 2017-02-27 03:49

I like Devuan it works exactly how it used to work Debian... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby mor » 2017-02-27 10:02

golinux wrote:Devuan is what Debian was before It went to the dark side. ;)

That subjective judgment is so far off base. And will always be so no matter how many times it is repeated.

See what I did?

:P
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby dasein » 2017-02-27 13:21

arochester wrote:I don't give much credence to the measure of Distrowatch...BUT...

You shoulda stopped before the BUT...

Distowatch PHR is no better at predicting actual popularity than a random list of distros. Even the folks at Distrowatch say that PHR shouldn't be taken seriously. Which is not to say that Debian isn't more popular than Devuan (nor that popularity and superiority are in any way related). But citing DW isn't the way to demonstrate a distro's actual popularity.

I can't believe folks are still beating this horse's grave.
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby Danielsan » 2017-02-27 13:36

Actually Distrowatch is super fine but not reliable, to burn more the Distro war we would need a package that anonymously updates a list of the actual distro in use specifying also if those are in a real computer or in a virtual machine... :mrgreen:
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby Ardouos » 2017-02-27 13:47

Danielsan wrote:I believe RMS doesn't care about systemd too much because the FSF is developing its own init system, I believe it is super cool but it still in development.

https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/


All RMS cares about is that software is free and preserving software freedom, preferably under the GPL.

He recommends distros that are "Free GNU/Linux Distros".
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby Danielsan » 2017-02-27 17:50

@ Ardouos

I love that page! :wink:
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Re: Biggest mistake ever made by Debian

Postby cpoakes » 2017-02-28 07:18

GarryRicketson wrote:They don't specify which other derivative repositories...

I wager our discussion is ongoing among Debian developers as well - seems a good explanation for the release/distro ambiguity.

DontBreakDebian wrote:The reason things can break is because the software packaged for one Debian release is built to be compatible with the rest of the software for that release [emphasis mine].

I find this the core rationale. Consider proprietary repositories: there are versions of Chrome, Opera, Vivaldi, Oracle, and others built for jessie. Some are simple to configure and some not so much. (I understand Oracle can be harrowing for the uninitiated.) Does installing these packages constitute a frankendebian? (Serious question, not rhetorical).

Personally, I don't think so. They are built and tested with jessie libs and packages. BL and MX are no different. A common refrain at BunsenLabs forums is literally "Don't Break Debian" not "Don't Break Bunsen", and a guiding principle for years as it was also heard in the forums of its predecessor CrunchBang. MX/AntiX forum attitudes are similar.

I am not unsympathetic with the support angle. "Don't even think about packages from another distro!" generates fewer support issues than "Don't even think about it unless you are sure you are not mixing releases." But experimentation with proprietary repos (like Chrome or Vivaldi), alternative repos (like deb-multimedia), and other builds targeted for my release is an essential reason I use Debian.

Mixing releases generally results in breakage and "frankendebian" is a legit scare tactic. As most derivative distros are not targeted at Debian releases, most are likely to cause breakage. I simply despair because "release" is simplified to "distro" for convenience and discourages legitimate use.
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