stable and up to date, Debian latest

News and discussion about development of the Debian OS itself

stable and up to date, Debian latest

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-06 23:54

This is the question for many Debian users. We use Debian because of stability but want more up to date software in different areas. The key to faster stable versions of software, by large part, is more testing of new unstable software. So I would want a subsystem on my computer called latest. Latest because in this system I can install the latest version of libraries and applications, and without hurting my stable Debian. With ease. I thinking maybe some sort of Gentoo system on top of Debian where anybody with a little knowledge can make and submit ebuilds (debuilds?) without waiting for an official package maintainer. Maintream users could with ease install these builds. Everybody could send their bug-reports upstream and to Debian package maintainers. I think source distribution seems helpful because hackers might browse the code for errors, having the code on their computer after all. And the build files would be faster to upload/edit, than to manage compiled binaries for the different archs. Have to admit I do not know the apt-build system very well. It might or might not fit my suggestions over.

Personally I would allways have latest Gimp, Blender, Code::Blocks, and a few games. Others would have other applications. Some would make Gnome or KDE, others maybe make the base/kernel and fire it up as virtual os. I think, if done right, this kind of testing in a Debian net-tools-package system really could help Debian with faster progression and more up-to-date releases, yet stable as ever.

Ok. My little dream. Sure it has flaws. Sure it is not really original. Maybe it even allready exists without my knowledge.

What do you think?
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Postby anarchyinc666 » 2008-12-07 00:37

If you want more up to date software than you can get though the standard Debian repositories, simply go to that particular software's web page, download their package and compile from source. I'm currently running Thunar unstable V0.9.92. Debian unstable only has V0.9.0-10. And XFce in Debian unstable only has V4.4.2.1 where as I run V4.5.92 unstable. It might not be the best idea to grab unstable packages direct from the developers but they also have stable that haven't made it to Debian experimental yet.

(off-topic rambling follows)

I guess that I just like to live on the edge so to speak, if something gets messed up the worst that can happen is that I have to reinstall so.. what's the big deal?

BTW, unstable Thunar is a bit buggy, (unmounts drives when not in use), But nothing that is going to keep you from your normal day to day activities.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT d- s: a- C++++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E-- W+++ N- o-- K- w++
O- M-- V-- PS+++ PE+++ Y PGP+++ t-- 5-- X+++ R* tv+++ b DI++++ D
G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Debian-SID Xfce
User avatar
anarchyinc666
 
Posts: 303
Joined: 2008-10-22 13:44

Re: stable and up to date, Debian latest

Postby Burnside » 2008-12-07 01:18

fanotto wrote: What do you think?


I think that's called 'testing'. Or even 'sid' if you just have to be state of the art. There's nothing to stop you from downloading a package and compiling it yourself on stable, testing, or sid. In fact, if you run testing or sid the source code for your packages are already available for download from the debian repos.

If you just HAVE to have everything right away with a similar system to portage then why not try Archlinux?
Burnside
 
Posts: 622
Joined: 2006-07-23 20:33
Location: Bend, OR

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-07 14:10

anarchyinc666 wrote:If you want more up to date software than you can get though the standard Debian repositories, simply go to that particular software's web page, download their package and compile from source. I'm currently running Thunar unstable V0.9.92. Debian unstable only has V0.9.0-10. And XFce in Debian unstable only has V4.4.2.1 where as I run V4.5.92 unstable. It might not be the best idea to grab unstable packages direct from the developers but they also have stable that haven't made it to Debian experimental yet.


Yes I know I can, and I do. But a point was to make that process more easy. Allso if the bug reporting on these new software goes through Debian it might help the Debian packages become stable faster.

anarchyinc666 wrote:I guess that I just like to live on the edge so to speak, if something gets messed up the worst that can happen is that I have to reinstall so.. what's the big dea?.


I think that is a big deal, I do not want to hurt my stable system.
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Re: stable and up to date, Debian latest

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-07 14:18

Burnside wrote:
fanotto wrote: What do you think?


I think that's called 'testing'. Or even 'sid' if you just have to be state of the art. There's nothing to stop you from downloading a package and compiling it yourself on stable, testing, or sid. In fact, if you run testing or sid the source code for your packages are already available for download from the debian repos.


But then, as far as I know, I have to mix packages from different repos, and risking get a damaged system. As I have done before. I do not want my unstable software to mix with my stable software.

Burnside wrote:If you just HAVE to have everything right away with a similar system to portage then why not try Archlinux?


I want stable system, and I like Debian. I do not want everything releleased last hour. Just a few applications. I want it to be easy.
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Postby rickh » 2008-12-07 15:10

The only way to do what you describe is to run a mixed Testing/Unstable system. You can not mix Stable with applications from any other release. There are some very limited ways to get upgrades for a few programs, but probably not the ones you want.

What most people ignorant of how Debian works can't seem to grasp is that Stable means Stable. Leave your grubby fingers out the the chosen application pool.
Debian-Lenny/Sid 32/64
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
User avatar
rickh
 
Posts: 3473
Joined: 2006-06-29 02:13
Location: Albuquerque, NM USA

Postby Eck » 2008-12-08 23:29

What rickh said.

Plus though, Debian testing is pretty stable right from the start since it's just initially a copy of stable. Once things get cracking after the new release is out we often get new software way before other distros get it. They need to wait 6 months for the next release. We just need to wait 10 days on average. Huge complex packages that depend upon lots of packages take longer, but we do seem to beat 6 months regardless.

You wouldn't need to mix unstable with testing unless there was something only in Sid that you absolutely needed (like an NVidia driver if the one initially in testing is removed due to Kernel updates or whatever). Why not let folks test things out first and fix up the problems? What's the hurry?
Lenovo z560 Laptop Nvidia GeForce 310m Hitachi 500GB HD Intel HD Audio 4GB RAM
Eck
 
Posts: 740
Joined: 2007-06-27 16:13

Postby craigevil » 2008-12-09 00:49

Bah just use Sid and install newer things like GIMP, Ooo from experimental when you just must have the newest.

$ apt-cache policy gimp
gimp:
Installed: 2.6.3-1
Candidate: 2.6.3-1

$ apt-cache policy openoffice.org-writer
openoffice.org-writer:
Installed: 1:3.0.0-5
Candidate: 1:3.0.0-5

Stable is for servers and people that have no need for newer software.
Debian Sid KDE Kernel 3.17 Thinkpad R40 Intel M 1.3 CPU 2GB RAM Radeon Mobility 7500
Debian - "If you can't apt-get something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"
Debian upgrade script smxi | sysinfo script inxi
User avatar
craigevil
 
Posts: 5192
Joined: 2006-09-17 03:17
Location: Oz

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-09 14:29

rickh wrote:The only way to do what you describe is to run a mixed Testing/Unstable system. You can not mix Stable with applications from any other release. There are some very limited ways to get upgrades for a few programs, but probably not the ones you want.


You can not get what I descibe with a mixed testing/unstable system. Or I have explained very not well. I talk about getting the software released this morning into a Debian environment. Without hurting a stable system. So you could keep your stable application X-1.0 but add newer version X-1.2 and its dependecies (if they need new versions as well). So the "latest" subsystem (or sidesystem) might be unstable at use, but will never hurt your stable Debian system.

rickh wrote:]
What most people ignorant of how Debian works can't seem to grasp is that Stable means Stable. Leave your grubby fingers out the the chosen application pool.


I use Debian mostly because it is stable. I do not mix repositories because I am sure I will damage my stable install somehow(maybe some can do this safe, but not me). And often the latest software are not availble in repositories anyway. But I do install latest software now and then. And usually I have no problems doing this myself. I do report bugs if I find any, but not via Debian.

Rationale behind my proposal
- I think the testing/bug-reports of latest software should be in a Debian eco-system, for faster stabilizing progress. So releases of Debian stable could be done more frequently and be more up to date.
- Making it more easy to install latest software .. well I will not rant on why I think that would be good.
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-09 14:43

Eck wrote: Why not let folks test things out first and fix up the problems? What's the hurry?


- Maybe I want a new feature.
- Maybe the latest software have bug-fixes implemented making it really more stable than version in stable.
- Maybe I want to help testing the latest software.
....
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Postby Burnside » 2008-12-09 15:51

fanotto wrote:
Eck wrote: Why not let folks test things out first and fix up the problems? What's the hurry?


- Maybe I want a new feature.
- Maybe the latest software have bug-fixes implemented making it really more stable than version in stable.
- Maybe I want to help testing the latest software.
....


We call that 'Sid' 'round these parts. Seriously.

Those of us that run Sid talk a big game about it being dangerous, but the truth is it's less buggy then certain other desktop oriented distros (Fedora comes to mind, and that big brown and orange one...). If the prospect of having to deal with the occasional breakage is really that frightening to you (though, that's always a risk when you "help testing the latest software") there's always sidux. sidux is completely binary compatible with Debian Sid, moves at the same pace, but has a few features built in to catch problematic packages before you install them.

edited for my usual abuse of the english language.
Last edited by Burnside on 2008-12-09 18:23, edited 1 time in total.
Burnside
 
Posts: 622
Joined: 2006-07-23 20:33
Location: Bend, OR

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-09 17:03

Burnside wrote:
Well call that 'Sid' 'round these parts. Seriously.

Those of us that run Sid talk a big game about it being dangerous, but the truth is it's less buggy then certain other desktop oriented distros (Fedora comes to mind, and that big brown and orange one...). If the prospect of having to deal with the occasional breakage is really that frightening to you (though, that's always a risk when you "help testing the latest software") there's always sidux. sidux is completely binary compatible with Debian Sid, moves at the same pace, but has a few features built in to catch problematic packages before you install them.


Please. I have allready said I do not want to test every new software on planet. Allso I have noted that lot of new software are not availble in Sid. Sure Sid and Sidux are fine distros, but I like to be more safe in general and rather have a only few latest software which I choose myself. And I want to keep the Debian Stable versions of same applications.

Can people stop pointing to Sid, Testing or other distros. Do you like my proposal or do you not? Why?
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Postby anarchyinc666 » 2008-12-09 17:37

I don't think anyone can really see your point of view, for instance;

1. You want to remain within the stable release repositories.
2. You want to be able to test out and use newer software that is not in Debian stable. (some aren't even in experimental)
3. You do not want to move into testing or unstable because they might hurt the "stability" of your machine.
4. You don't want to simply compile from source because it doesn't have full Debian support.


Okay, here is my 2 cents. Unless you are running a server that people actually use, run at least testing. If you want state of the art software, grow a pair and either go Sid or compile from source and stop whining that it won't be stable, if you want it to be stable.... STAY STABLE.

Right now Sid is as safe as any other stable distro due to the freeze. If on the other hand you really want the latest and greatest, do what the actual Debian developers do and use the same open source code that comes from the package developers.

For instance, Xfce is in beta 2 right now with version 4.5.92, Debian stable all the way up to experimental have 4.4.3 (ref: http://pkg-xfce.alioth.debian.org/ ). Debian Xfce group are currently working with Xubuntu developers at the moment, so support is out there, you just need to know where to look. Even though this is labeled as a beta and not ready for general distribution (something Xubuntu decided to ignore with 8.10) it still runs just fine if you know what you are doing.


BTW, if you add unstable or untested packages to a "stable" system. You can't logically call it a stable system anymore.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT d- s: a- C++++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E-- W+++ N- o-- K- w++
O- M-- V-- PS+++ PE+++ Y PGP+++ t-- 5-- X+++ R* tv+++ b DI++++ D
G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Debian-SID Xfce
User avatar
anarchyinc666
 
Posts: 303
Joined: 2008-10-22 13:44

Postby rickh » 2008-12-09 18:05

Do you like my proposal or do you not? Why?

Of course nobody likes your idea. It's stupid. How about that.

You are simply proposing what Debian already has ... Testing/unstable, and you want to change the name to Stable+.
Debian-Lenny/Sid 32/64
Desktop: Generic Core 2 Duo, EVGA 680i, Nvidia
Laptop: Generic Intel SIS/AC97
User avatar
rickh
 
Posts: 3473
Joined: 2006-06-29 02:13
Location: Albuquerque, NM USA

Postby fanotto » 2008-12-09 20:05

anarchyinc666 wrote:I don't think anyone can really see your point of view, for instance;

1. You want to remain within the stable release repositories.
2. You want to be able to test out and use newer software that is not in Debian stable. (some aren't even in experimental)
3. You do not want to move into testing or unstable because they might hurt the "stability" of your machine.
4. You don't want to simply compile from source because it doesn't have full Debian support.


1-3 are correct, number four wrong. I do compile the latest software I want from source, latest releases or from svn for the latest latest. I can do that without hurting my stable system, and I can keep the Debian stable version of the same software. But I would like it to be more easy. Allso I think that it would benefit Debian if this use/testing of fresh software were done more as collaboration between Debian users.



anarchyinc666 wrote:Okay, here is my 2 cents. Unless you are running a server that people actually use, run at least testing. If you want state of the art software, grow a pair and either go Sid or compile from source and stop whining that it won't be stable, if you want it to be stable.... STAY STABLE.


Hey. I am not whining. I stay stable And I compile from source. I think it would be better if it was better solutions for this in a Debian structure.


anarchyinc666 wrote:BTW, if you add unstable or untested packages to a "stable" system. You can't logically call it a stable system anymore.


I do not really agree. I would say it depends on what software the computer is running at the given moment. As we are talking about adding software, not replacing software, the system would be stable until you run the spesific unstable software. You would boot up to a normal stable system, and can choose if you want to run the software from stable repositories, or the newer unstable version of the same software (ofcourse risking a temporarily unstable system).
fanotto
 
Posts: 10
Joined: 2008-12-06 21:37

Next

Return to Debian Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

fashionable