Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby sgage » 2017-07-17 10:06

Bulkley wrote:From arochester"s first post:
Ubuntu and friends offer a superior experience.


I have never thought of a computer OS as an experience. To me, it is a tool box loaded with tools. In this sense, Debian exceeds.


This 'experience' talk is marketing-speak. In other words, meaningless babble. What he really meant was "I prefer Ubuntu". Therefore, it must be superior, right?

These people really want a Mac or Windows. 8)
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby ruffwoof » 2017-07-17 10:30

From a user perspective, Debian 9 Stretch ... is a repository - the latest 'Stable' version. A bad choice of naming IMO as stable in that context means 'unchanging' ... not solid. i.e. that repository will be changed as little as possible and only to address security or critical bug issues.

That repository can be used to build/install a wide range of setups (server, desktop ...etc.).

If you want a solid desktop then go with oldstable i.e. Jessie. The cost of that stability (as in solid) is the packages have been around for a while (tried and tested), not the latest versions (that might be unstable). Or it might not support the latest hardware.

Stick with just the MAIN repository and don't import things from outside ... and Debian is a single stop all encompassing product. Others are much more mix and match ... often with undesirable consequences (kernel from here, one program from there, another program from elsewhere).

Understand the core Debian concept and you can see why systemD is the preferred path as that facilitates moving more into the single core.

The Debian repository is the source for many many other distros. Typically where tweaks/changes are made and parts brought in from elsewhere. That might work OK for some but shouldn't be something that Debian aspires to provide. Debian does a great job of what it already does best.

Dedoimedo wrote
In my long history as a distro tester, I've only tried pure Debian twice

As he's looking for a desktop distro to test for stability/functionality, he should be installing and reviewing oldstable versions.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Danielsan » 2017-07-17 19:58

Nobody should read or post in the forum articles like the one in topic. I read other useless articles with the same useless content about Debian 9, basically this kind of articles are approximate, arguably and tedious. In these kind or articles the only thing that is shown is a bunch of guys that failed to install Debian properly,I mean this is their failing not the one of Debian.

I am not against constructive critiques about something, in this case Debian, even if these are pretty hard but at least honest. However if you want analyze critically and rationally Debian eventually you are going to write something like that:

http://www.datamation.com/open-source/w ... ebian.html

Another kind of article that is useful for everyone because if that guy, at least, would had written an article on how to install Debian Stretch on his laptop it would be harsh but useful for someone else, not all the laptop are free driver friendly.

From my point of view this one of the others bad practice introduced by Canonical with Ubuntu, people care only about the DE experience, people prefer binary blobs instead to spend five minutes more to tuning your computer after the installation. Ubuntu and its derivates like Mint or Pantheon doesn't care much about the quality of the packaging, of the repository or about security, everything I read some article like I already know the reason why...

Anyway I read further articles of this guy and he doesn't like almost nothing about GNU, Linux, Systemd... Probably he had better to stick with Window or MacOS, productive, polish and ready made as he wants... :?
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby sunrat » 2017-07-17 22:30

He did have good things to say about Plasma 5. In Kubuntu of course.
http://www.ocsmag.com/2017/06/17/plasma ... e-desktop/
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Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby buntunub » 2017-07-18 00:18

Wow. Been a while. I uninstalled Debian when they switched to systemd. Speaking of which, how is that working out for you guys?

I do like reading Dodemoido, or whatever that freaks name is. He is mildly entertaining, but almost always spot-on with his reviews. I have no doubt this review is of similar caliber.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby VentGrey » 2017-07-18 00:30

From my experience the so "hated" systemd bugs haven't affected me once, besides it is nothing to worry about, boot, shutdown, services, targets, etc go pretty neat. :mrgreen:
“I felt myself on the edge of the world; peering over the rim into a fathomless chaos of eternal night.”
― H.P. Lovecraft after trying Debian SidImage
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-07-18 06:41

The 1st article reads to me somewhat like the user hasn't properly configured his video card and that certain network adapters just lack drivers. Or how would you interpret the firmware loading failure? I think they should repeat the same with the firmware-enabled images. Frankly, I'm sick of these articles where it's the fault of open source that proprietary drivers can't be included. The conclusion here is that Debian as a product is inferior because the community isn't a company that licenses proprietary software.

EDIT: Same apparently goes for article 2:

To start with, Debain 9 Stretch failed to configure the Wireless network card on my computer, which is Intel Corporation Wireless 3160 (rev 83). I understand that iwlwifi is a non-free component, but all the distributions I tried before on the same laptop managed that difficulty.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby dasein » 2017-07-18 12:14

sgage wrote:This 'experience' talk is marketing-speak. In other words, meaningless babble.

Uh, no. UX is real science with real metrics; here's a gentle introduction: http://www.wqusability.com/articles/get ... arted.html

I've never understood why the fanbois from any distro (including Debian) get their panties in a wad simply because other people have the audacity to have different tastes, different evaluation criteria, different use-cases, etc.

I mean, okay, J Random Blogger prefers, say, OpenSUSE to Debian, tomato soup to onion soup, likes Star Trek over Star Wars, et cetera, ad nauseam.

So the *$^*% what? Why do you care what someone else thinks? Why exactly does it become necessary to attack them personally?

Edited for clarity
Last edited by dasein on 2017-07-18 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Lysander » 2017-07-18 12:36

dasein wrote:Uh, no. But cheer up--your fact-free mini-rant certainly is: http://www.wqusability.com/articles/get ... arted.html


This reads like recruitment material for a multi-level marketing scam or pyramid scheme. Utterly vacuous.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby dasein » 2017-07-18 12:40

Lysander wrote:
dasein wrote:Uh, no. But cheer up--your fact-free mini-rant certainly is: http://www.wqusability.com/articles/get ... arted.html


This reads like recruitment material for a multi-level marketing scam or pyramid scheme. Utterly vacuous.

Huh? The article gently introduces specific, reliable metrics for measuring user experience.

It's fascinating to me that the voices screaming "subjective" and "vacuous" offer absolutely no reliable method for measuring that which they so bitterly decry.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Lysander » 2017-07-18 12:43

dasein wrote:
Lysander wrote:
dasein wrote:Uh, no. But cheer up--your fact-free mini-rant certainly is: http://www.wqusability.com/articles/get ... arted.html


This reads like recruitment material for a multi-level marketing scam or pyramid scheme. Utterly vacuous.

Huh? The article gently introduces specific, reliable measures for user experience.

It's fascinating to me that the two voices thus far screaming "subjective" and "vacuous" offer absolutely no reliable method for measuring that which they so bitterly decry.


In that case it is the tone and writing style of the material that irks me and which obscures the value of its content, unfortunately.

Also - apologies, it seems I misunderstood your post, dasein. I thought you were decrying the linked material rather than supporting it. Nevertheless, as I say I don't favour that writing style very much, though I accept that there may be useful material within.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby None1975 » 2017-07-18 12:56

buntunub wrote:Speaking of which, how is that working out for you guys?.

Works nice, and trouble free. I mean Debian 8.8 and Debian 9.0.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby dasein » 2017-07-18 13:13

Lysander wrote:...it seems I misunderstood your post, dasein

My sincere thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity. I've edited my earlier post in hopes of making myself more clear.

Lysander wrote:I don't favour that writing style very much, though I accept that there may be useful material within.

I'm not a huge fan of either her style or her tone. But her presentation struck me as somewhat more inviting than the standard "bullet list" of UX dimensions (efficiency, effectiveness, learnability, memorability, and satisfaction), along with the metrics used to measure each of them.

But maybe I was wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Danielsan » 2017-07-18 16:28

dasein wrote:I've never understood why the fanbois from any distro (including Debian) get their panties in a wad simply because other people have the audacity to have different tastes, different evaluation criteria, different use-cases, etc.


I am not a fanboy but I am surely against those article that are pretty individual but want rise itself as universal, especially from someone that opened his article like: In my long history as a distro tester, I've only tried pure Debian twice :?

From newbyes that have few, or nothing, experience with GNU/Linux I can understand their frustration because is a common experience for almost every all, but people with experience should have learned there are hardware less linux kernel friendly as well as when you are having issues with a fresh installation most of the time is because you; in that case there aren't different tastes or different evaluation criteria just people who failed doing an installation.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby dasein » 2017-07-18 17:31

Danielsan wrote:<blah blah blah>

Yeah, and people prefer jam to jelly "shouldn't" express their preferences, lest they confuse some poor person unfamiliar with fruit preserves.

Danielsan wrote:...when you are having issues with a fresh installation most of the time is because [of] you

Remind me again what planet you said you were from? Installation issues because of crappy installer UIs are the single biggest UX pain-point in all of LinuxLand (very notably including Debian).

Danielsan wrote:I am not a fanboy

Not to worry. You fake it remarkably well. :roll:

Afterthought: I remember my first "starter" distro was widely praised for its newbie-friendly installer. I also remember being asked "newbie-friendly" questions like "Save changes to /etc/fstab?". And I also recall, as I was completing my roughly fifth unsuccessful install, screaming at the screen, "I don't phugging know! Is there an English translation for this question????

It's just too easy for folks to overlook prerequisite knowledge. I remember my first visit to one particular building. There, posted prominently in what I feel sure was a sincere attempt to help, was a sign that read:
Code: Select all
This door to remain locked at all times
Please use west doors for entrance

Which, of course, is really handy information for anyone who already knows which direction they're facing, or for those prescient enough to bring a compass with them. But the person trying to help never thought simply to draw an arrow in the correct direction.

For those who actually care, a classic introduction to the wider subject area of interface/industrial design is here: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday- ... 989&sr=1-2

(Sorry for the hijack.)
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