Advantages Debian and Ubuntu?

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dflag · #16 Post by **dflag** » 2006-12-08 16:21

I do not know how true this is, but I hear there is much chance of breakage when upgrading a Ubuntu release without having one of those meta desktop packages installed (ubuntu-desktop etc)?

That seems extremely restrictive if that is the case, I sure don't want to go reinstalling all the bloat I removed just to upgrade my distro. Maybe that's just something said to scare off the new folk from trying and missing out on the great new stuff like mono (cough).

Also, I like the way testing is handled in Debian, where Ubuntu has no equal to this. Oh, and the more emphasis on freedom. And the not gaining users at all costs thing. Other than that, Ubuntu is okay I guess.

hcgtv · #17 Post by **hcgtv** » 2006-12-08 18:14

I followed the Ubuntu forums for a time and I didn't care for the Debian bashing going on there.

It was like the users thought that Mark and his staff had written everything from scratch, very disheartening. I was championing Ubuntu on other forums cause it was a nice alternative for newbies but I'm recommending Etch at this point.

Ubuntu is heading towards the commercial spectrum with their inclusion of proprietary drivers. I wish them the best but I'll stick with Debian's philosophy, it's worked well in the past and should carry us onwards.

ladoga · #18 Post by **ladoga** » 2006-12-09 00:50

As an ex Ubuntu user I have to say that ease of customizing install to my needs and stability are the main things that brought me into Debian.

I do not know how true this is, but I hear there is much chance of breakage when upgrading a Ubuntu release without having one of those meta desktop packages installed (ubuntu-desktop etc)?

It was very true for me. I had a customized Ubuntu install (base/server install running fluxbox) and both upgrades I did (Warty->Hoary and then Hoary->Breezy) messed up my system completely with useless packages. Both times the end result was so bad that complete reinstall was easiest thing to do. Second time I was smarter and went for Debian testing.

Debian seems to be the right distro for me. Nothing to complain really. Good philosophy, stability, flexibility, developement procedure (unstable->testing->stable), fast and easy package management and the fact that it's all community driven makes it simply amazing.

Ubuntu is a fine distribution for those who don't want to customize their system and who want to get useable desktop linux quickly up and running. Stability is allright as long as one doesn't get too far from the path chosen by the default install.

I hope that Debian users can stay civil when discussing about Ubuntu. Hostility towards other distributions is only harmful to us.

SkyNet2029 · #19 Post by **SkyNet2029** » 2007-01-01 04:35

I will bet you that you will see that whatever Ubuntu does, Debian does smarter and with substantially less consequence. Debian is reliable. Ubuntu is a kid with ADD.

--That's so funny only by virtue of reality.

To each their own shold still be the norm as goes a particular distro.
Having had to go through the near unbearable hell of doing a network upgrade from breezy->Dapper only to watch as gdm crashed over and over, ad nauseum...I must say that I am all too happy with not having the dependancy nightmares that is rampant in Ubuntu on my machines. The notion that any user forums won't bash another distro is pure silliness, as we all know, but sort of off-topic.
Reliability. That is the key. Rest assured that 9 times out of ten, if you are running an upgrade on Debian and it breaks stuff, it is more than likely user error. No so with ubuntu. I don't know. It was fun while there, but how many times must we polish the chrome before it just becomes a 'task'?
At any rate, Etch runs so smoothly that I am sometimes left with nothing to do but fire up Amorak and wonder just why it is I found hosing a machine with ubuntu so much fun previously to coming back to Debian.

[/quote]

Barstow · #20 Post by **Barstow** » 2007-01-02 00:29

I just recently moved from Ubuntu Edgy to Debian Etch. The reason that I did this was mainly because of security features of SElinux and HD encryption.

I can tell you for a fact that even with my HD encrypted that Etch is way faster then Edgy.

Another reason that I switched to Etch was because I wanted to install only those progs that I use. Ubuntu comes with a set of progs that get installed by defult and why this is I haven't a clue.

Ubuntu is cool though, I have set it up on five other people's systems that were looking to get away form windows. With Automatix + Ubuntu desktop install it was a win for each and every one.

I am beyond this now and seek my own path to computer/linux nirvana, which I find in Debian.

You know, free choice is a good thing.

Barstow

mzilikazi · #21 Post by **mzilikazi** » 2007-01-02 20:44

I come from the other side of the fence having never even booted Ubuntu anything. So my question is, "What does Ubuntu have to offer that Debian does not?"

Reworked debs but not as many as Debian?
A better installer?
Clicky-pointy tools to install multimedia codecs?
Passwordless sudo?

Since I can edit a text file just fine none of that appeals to me and I see no point in limiting what packages are available to me when I have the whole of Debian right here!

I usually avoid making all-encomassing statements about any group in general because that is never accurate or fair but it does seem to me that Ubuntu dumbs down the OS so much that users really have no clue about what happens behind the scenes. I think that a basic understanding of Linux in general is nothing but a good thing.

I seem to see alot of people that were once Ubuntu users and then for one reason or another decided to give Debian a try. Welcome, sit down & relax, you're going to be here a while.

garrincha · #22 Post by **garrincha** » 2007-01-02 21:00

I cannot comment much about the principal differences between Debian/Sarge/Etch/Sid and Ubuntu as I have tried the latter for only a brief period of about 24 hrs before I purged it from my PC! That was around May last year when I was trying out some of the different Linux distros.

Sufficient to say I feel that Ubuntu has made Linux came a long way in getting some people especially those "technophobic" and Windows "druggie" to migrate simple because of the ease of installation and user friendliness.

My question though is that would it be at all possible for Debian to go down the commercial road as Ubuntu did in the future, perhaps with a branched release of a stable version of Etch for the consumption of the mass? I know that it goes against the Debian's GNU/Linux social contract and free software philosophy.

frenchninja · #23 Post by **frenchninja** » 2007-01-02 23:02

I know that it goes against the Debian's GNU/Linux social contract and free software philosophy.

And I think that is exactly why the answer would likely be 'no.'

To me, a branched release of Debian for the 'masses' *is* Ubuntu. Just that it's based on Sid.

I think Ubuntu has done some good things in regards to making Linux more prominent and attractive to previously non-Linux users. I do think that it has made an error in, as was said, 'dumbing things down'. If you don't want your users to think, then they won't. If you try and stop them from making their own mistakes, they won't learn that mistakes can be made.
So, I think if people use Ubuntu, that's fine - but they will not learn Linux by doing so. Which is also fine, I don't care. But one will find that as soon as they try a different distro, i.e Debian, the learning curve will almost certainly be too steep for many. I've seen it with my own eyes.
All that will happen is that the Linux community will be divided into those that know Linux, and those that just use Linux. There are types of Linux that have a contributing community learning together, making the distro better together, and another Linux that is more consumer-driven - just wants others to make things 'just work' for them.

So I don't think it's a case of 'advantage versus disadvantage'. One person's advantage is another person's disadvantage. I think that Ubuntu attempts to serve a different area of the community to distros like Debian. It's just a different group of people who want to use their computers in a different way. Good luck to 'em

<end rant>

Lavene · #24 Post by **Lavene** » 2007-01-03 05:16

mzilikazi wrote:I come from the other side of the fence having never even booted Ubuntu anything. So my question is, "What does Ubuntu have to offer that Debian does not?"

I think that the main thing Ubuntu has to offer compared to Debian proper is a sense of simplicity. It installs without any fuzz and you get a nice, clean desktop with one app for a given task. One browser, one filemanager, one e-mail program etc etc. It's kinda 'windowsy' and therefore feels vaguely familiar for Windows users. Ubuntu makes a lot of the initial choices for you and for some (or quite a lot judging from the sheer size of the Ubuntu userbase) that is a good thing.

In the end Ubuntu is just another choice in the Linux universe. As I have said before; personally I don't like Ubuntu but I think it's great that there is a distro out there that seem to really appeal to Windows refugees. Also remember that when you choose your first distro you don't make a choice for life. It's *very* common for 'semi-noobs' to do some serious distro hopping so I'm not at all worried that Ubuntu will end up as the defacto Linux distro.

garrincha wrote:My question though is that would it be at all possible for Debian to go down the commercial road as Ubuntu did in the future, perhaps with a branched release of a stable version of Etch for the consumption of the mass? I know that it goes against the Debian's GNU/Linux social contract and free software philosophy.

I don't think it's possible, not only because of the Debian policy (there is nothing wrong in selling software if you can, as long as you stick to the rules) but because of the organization. Ubuntu is a distro where, in the end, one man calls the shots. That one man also happen to sit on the money bag.

Debian is a community effort, practically owned by no one, with thousands of contributors. Making Debian a business would require such a radical change in it's organization that I suspect the entire project would disintegrate. There is no way Debian can go commercial, but of course there is nothing wrong with basing a commercial distro on Debian should anyone want to. Although it seems like the commercial market prefer RHL based distros at the moment.

Tina

Hagbard · #25 Post by **Hagbard** » 2007-01-03 06:25

I think Debian Etch is the best distro out there by a long ways. I think Ubuntu is also a great distribution. How can it not be, since it is basically a customized subset of the unstable branch? I think the success of Ubuntu is a great thing for Debian GNU/Linux, because it is bound to draw many more people into the community. Seeing an Ubuntu CD effortlessly startup a desktop and then auto-install itself as a fully functional modern desktop workstation with good hardware support is a real eye-opener for people who don't think free software is ready for the mainstream user.

I think it's a mistake to assume that Ubuntu users won't learn the GNU/Linux coreutils. For instance, a frequent request from a casual computer user is how to do operations on groups of files, usually a set of pics imported from a digital cam. As everyone knows, bash makes mass file operations much faster than using the GUI. From there, its a relatively short step to doing things like creating cron jobs to make automatic backups of document folders and setting up Apache to share the pics on wireless LAN with anyone who brings their laptop over.

Then the next time you stop by, your friend is telling you about how he cross-wired his xbox 360 with a router and got a customized 2.4 kernel Gentoo install running and the xbox is now a combination router/firewall/LAN web server.

Sometimes the hard part is taking that first step, and everything that Ubuntu can do to make the first step easier will help our community in the long run.

Leif · #26 Post by **Leif** » 2007-01-03 12:16

I started using Ubuntu about a year ago and found it an easy way for a newbie to get started with Linux. Heck they will even mail you a CD and the installation was very easy.

Lately I felt I knew enough and finally burnt an iso file and did a network install of Etch and found it more difficult but rewarding.

Guess my point is that any distro of Linux is better than being a slave to the other OS and if it enables newbies to try it that is a good thing and it may lead them to Debian.

Leif

garrincha · #27 Post by **garrincha** » 2007-01-03 21:49

I was only asking the questions only because at present, Debian distro seems to be very 'healthy', if only because it seems to be the only major distro to be fully independent and volunteer based - how many other could said the same, maybe Gentoo but not others. It is the fact that Debian has such a large volunteer base and packages that make it capable of going mainstream in the future.

stream303 · #28 Post by **stream303** » 2007-01-04 09:53

I came to Debian after finding out that Ubuntu doesn't have the resources to support the Power-PC platform in the future. (I run a G5 iMac with Etch-testing now)

While commercial support for some of the 3D graphics may never matierialize for the PPC platform, I could care less as I am totally happy with my 2D graphical setup and don't particularly care for binary blobs.

I can see their point, and have made the switch to Debian which has different goals when it comes to multi-arch support.

Yeah, I could probably run Ubuntu for the next few years on it, but I am much happier with Debian despite the occasional ppc politics.

patrick295767 · #29 Post by **patrick295767** » 2007-01-04 17:54

alleluia20 wrote:Hello all,

I use Debian testing at work and Ubuntu (latest version) on the laptop.

Almost all people agree that Ubuntu is easier to use and you "waste" less time fixing its problems.

On the other hand, I would like to ask about the "practical" advantages of Debian over Ubuntu. I am NOT asking about the license freedom, or the community versus company support, etc, but about, let me say, "more practical things": performance, speed, bugs, being up-to-date, administration, etc.

Thank you very much for your help.

For me, I save twice or three times time with Debian than with Ubuntu.

I Love Debian since it is a distro that works,
and dont say to me that typing :

Code: Select all

su -
apt-cache  search thepackageofdetailsofwhatIwannainstall
apt-get install thepackagename

is something difficult to do.

Automatix is a solution for non working debs or problems due to their repositories.

I mean I dont need an HOWTO to install something after looking hours on a damn forum.
I wanna just do apt-get install and this is only possible with Debian
an example: http://freevo.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/d ... oAptDebian
apt-get install freevo

I also dislike GUI installs, we are not in windows. Automatix is not sthg for me

With debian, it works, just put the right sources.list, and apt-get or aptitude do all for you: stability & reliabitliy.

that's my point of vue & experience, others have their own and own experience

patrick295767 · #30 Post by **patrick295767** » 2007-01-04 18:00

Lavene wrote:I don't think it's possible, not only because of the Debian policy (there is nothing wrong in selling software if you can, as long as you stick to the rules) but because of the organization. Ubuntu is a distro where, in the end, one man calls the shots. That one man also happen to sit on the money bag.

Debian is a community effort, practically owned by no one, with thousands of contributors. Making Debian a business would require such a radical change in it's organization that I suspect the entire project would disintegrate. There is no way Debian can go commercial, but of course there is nothing wrong with basing a commercial distro on Debian should anyone want to. Although it seems like the commercial market prefer RHL based distros at the moment.

Tina

Hoping you say right and Debian will remain the same as it is today !
(my sign)

nopposan · #31 Post by **nopposan** » 2007-02-09 22:21

I cut my teeth on Ubuntu before Dapper. The installation was amazingly fast and easy; it made a very good impression on me. However, I had to switch to SuSE 10.0 for more hardware support that was easy for a newbie to configure. 'Now have a computer running Kubuntu Edgy and I'm a bit disappointed in it; some applications crash without any warning or error message popup. I've installed Debian Etch a couple of times and I like it better, at least for now; 'have high hopes for Debian.

Thanks.

Optional · #32 Post by **Optional** » 2007-02-09 22:54

While I've had a far better experience with Ubuntu than Debian Etch so far, Etch is far faster (even without hardware acceleration) in almost every aspect and offers the ability to set up a fully-encrypted machine (except for /boot) right in the installer.

Those 2 things sold me. Once I work out the little quirks with getting nvidia's drivers to work, I will be a happy camper.

nopposan · #33 Post by **nopposan** » 2007-02-10 04:15

Curious. How do you get a fully encrypted system on install?

DeanLinkous · #34 Post by **DeanLinkous** » 2007-02-10 04:25

no integrated cnr technology installed by default in debian...thank goodness!

craigevil · #35 Post by **craigevil** » 2007-02-10 05:17

DeanLinkous wrote:no integrated cnr technology installed by default in debian...thank goodness!

Actually when CNR is available for Debian it will make things easier for people that have no idea how to install packages and:
press

CNR.com will also bring more choices for users to purchase premium products and services, such as legally licensed DVD Players, Sun's StarOffice, Win4Lin Pro, CodeWeavers' CrossoverOffice, TransGaming's Cedega, as well as numerous other commercial software applications from various categories including, media playback, personal and business productivity, finances, virtualization, development tools and games. CNR will also allow users quick access to multimedia codecs and hardware drivers, bringing one-click support for MP3, Windows Media, Quick Time, Java, Flash, ATI and nVidia graphics, and so on

Make it easier for the same people to find things like multimedia stuff.

Now Linspire is jumping on the Ubuntu bandwagon. So the question will be why Linspire or Mepis or Pioneer or all the other *buntu based distros why not just use *buntu. Or better yet why not just the big-daddy Debian.

I think it is amazing how Ubuntu came out of no where and now even people that have no idea what Linux is have heard of it.

Its been a while since I have given it a tried so I just downloaded Kubuntu, Freespire sucked and for some reason Etch keeps crashing so what the heck.

Then again my Debian Sid partition has been stable for over 2 years now with daily apt-get dist-upgrades, so It is fully updated with no problems. Although Etch needs to hurry up and release so I can get things like KDE,OpenOffice updated. Why does Sid freeze when Testing freezes?

Debian rules!! Ubuntu follows.

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