Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby stevepusser » 2015-12-21 05:13

You could backport your own shiny new stuff, or take advantage of others that know how to do it. :)

The MX 15 repo in my sig started out in plain vanilla Jessie; we've added more updates as time has gone on, but it's still very close to a Jessie + jessie-backports base. We've decided to port over jessie-backports packages as necessary, due to some nasty breakages that wheezy-backports created over the past few years, some of which the maintainer took months to fix, such as the Qt 5 backport.

I learn something new all the time..today, that having libgstreamer1.0-dev installed while backporting upstream's VLC 2.2.1-5 will cause the package to have a build failure. This is due to the build silently creating an extra libgstdecode.so plugin library that the Debian package install system does not account for when that package is installed. Making that -dev package a "Build-Conflicts:" in debian/control solves that issue. The other method is to make it a Build-Depends and add that .so file to the debian/vlc-nox.install.in file...it's the packager's choice.
The MX Linux repositories: Backports galore! If we don't have something, just ask and we'll try--we like challenges. New packages: Krita 3.3.2.1, Pale Moon 27.6.0, Audacity 2.2.0, mpv 0.27.0, Corebird 1.7.1, Firefox 57.0, SMPlayer 17.11.2
User avatar
stevepusser
 
Posts: 8935
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby Starborn » 2015-12-30 18:49

As a new user, this is a fascinating thread :)

golinux wrote:
GarryRicketson wrote:So, Is there any way to "fix" it ?
Maybe a lobotomy?

And this made me "lol".

Seriously. I am wondering how many of those people have/had only recently switched to Debian/Linux from Windows. As I see it, they mix repositories, because they think repositories are like websites and download servers where one can download any program from. In Windows, if you don't find Program.exe at "download4rmhereDOTcom", you just go to "getit4rmhereDOTcom" and download it there, then you run setup.exe, and that's it.

They don't seem to realise that a repository is _not_ (like) a website where one can download programs from. A package is not (like) a Windows program. Once they realise this, they will also realise why mixing repositories is a very bad thing to do. I am not a Linux expert, but I realise this.

I have always been very "conservative" user with my computers, and I have never had many things going wrong with them (not even in Windows - althought, here in Debian a couple of weeks ago, uninstalling a few packages took Gnome 3 back to the (awfully-userunfriendly) "standard" install, which I could have known would happen, if I had been more careful, but it was late and I was tired and, so, well, yada yada yada...).

Experience is the best teacher.
We're all star children!
Starborn
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 2015-12-30 17:49

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-12-30 19:09

They don't seem to realize that a repository is _not_ (like) a website where one can download programs from.

And also that there are different versions of Debian, IE: Stable,OldStable, Squeeze, Wheezy, Jessie, Testing, Sid, and so on.
There is plenty of documentation, that goes into these things, but some people just never read any of it.

This is the newest one : http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126352#p603058
You have a mixture of Wheezy, Debian 7 - which is the obsolete stable release, and Stable, which is currently Jessie Debian 8.


This is in the Debian Wiki, most of these disasters, could have been avoided, if the
"New Users", read some of the documentation ahead of time, of course there also are always the ones that read, but choose to ignore what they read, but that is another story.

https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

So why bother with reading documentation ?
Answer: It can help you avoid making serious mistakes.
Documentation
An important part of any operating system is documentation, the technical manuals that describe the operation and use of programs. As part of its efforts to create a high-quality free operating system, the Debian Project is making every effort to provide all of its users with proper documentation in an easily accessible form.
"What we expect you have already Done"

Before doing anything, read the Debian documentation:
Debian Documentation
How to ask the smart way
Debian Foro Español
======================
For the Birds
User avatar
GarryRicketson
 
Posts: 4438
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby dasein » 2015-12-30 19:25

Starborn wrote:As a new user, this is a fascinating thread :)

Good to know that the occasional new user visits it.

GarryRicketson wrote:This is the newest one : http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126352#p603058

Ah yes, another "if I don't admit to mixing repos, maybe no one will be able to figure it out." (Although this one is brazen enough to ask "what gave it away?" :lol:)

The "hope no one notices" strategy really is a nonstarter.
User avatar
dasein
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby anticapitalista » 2015-12-30 22:40

I blame all those distros that attempt to make linux just like windows. Result: windows users who try linux (they might think linux means all distros) do it the windows way i.e. download from wherever.
antiX "Killah P" - lean and mean.
http://antix.mepis.org
anticapitalista
 
Posts: 295
Joined: 2007-12-14 23:16

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2015-12-30 22:51

anticapitalista wrote:I blame all those distros that attempt to make linux just like windows. Result: windows users who try linux (they might think linux means all distros) do it the windows way i.e. download from wherever.

So, my knife killed the people, not the madman who stole it from me?
Besides, I don't think that many of those distros you name officially condone mix'n match.
Some of them make an own mix of various sources, but they all warn from private archives
AFAIK.
User avatar
thanatos_incarnate
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 2012-11-04 20:36

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby Starborn » 2015-12-31 13:34

anticapitalista wrote:I blame all those distros that attempt to make linux just like windows. Result: windows users who try linux (they might think linux means all distros) do it the windows way i.e. download from wherever.

Do yo mean that or were you kidding? If you mean that, then I think you are not being honest. It is not the distros' fault that Windows users (and I still am one, too) are too... ahem, "dumb" to read up about how downloading and installing software in Linux works. The Debian website explains it clearly enough.
We're all star children!
Starborn
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 2015-12-30 17:49

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby wizard10000 » 2015-12-31 13:58

I think there are social engineering issues on both sides of the support model :)

Running the risk of argumentum ad verecundiam, I've supported computer end users professionally for more than 20 years; I'm one of about three people I know who actually enjoy end user support - it's the only job I've had where people thank you for just doing your job at least half a dozen times a day :)

Back in the day I did a couple of years as a Microsoft MVP in desktop operating systems which is actually a pretty high honor. These days I manage a tier 1 service desk and tier 2 remote support for a rather large midwestern gas and electric utility; service desk traffic is about 12k interactions a month.

For some of us computering is a hobby; for the vast majority of end users out there a computer is an appliance. I'd offer that almost every one of us in a support role had to learn the hard way to Read The Fine Manual and sadly, that lesson generally isn't learned without considerable discomfort on the part of the end user :)

This point has already been made but Linux != Windows and the majority of folks transitioning from Windows never had to pay attention to where their software came from, never really had to RTFM to get to the root of a problem, a lot of people's google-fu needs a little work and by the time they land here they're generally pretty frustrated trying to resolve their issue. To be honest I think that the *buntu distributions and their derivatives complicate things a little as it's Perfectly Fine to install untrusted software in that environment. Hell, it's even encouraged.

For me there are a couple of different classes of end users - those who want me to resolve their issue with little to no effort on their part (no thank you, I have better things to do) and those who are perfectly willing to resolve their own issues but need someone to illuminate the proper path to resolution (I like this kind of user).

Anyway, this post is too long so I'm gonna STFU. My point is that a lot of end users have to relearn a few skills and some of us need to remember what it was like to be a n00b.

Happy new year, everyone :)
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
User avatar
wizard10000
 
Posts: 1218
Joined: 2011-05-09 20:02
Location: everywhere i go, there i am!

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2015-12-31 14:27

wizard10000 wrote:To be honest I think that the *buntu distributions and their derivatives complicate things a little as it's Perfectly Fine to install untrusted software in that environment. Hell, it's even encouraged.

Could you please name an official statement by Ubuntu personnel or developers that says using external sources is encouraged?
They might tell you that installing Google Chrome or Virtualbox is OK, which is true, but I don't think there are officially sanctioned
statements that tell you it's e.g. OK to mix Ubuntu stable with a testing release or older ones, nor that it would be prudent to use
PPAs as an average user.

It might be the case that volunteers on the forums say that, but they aren't part of the official distro mission statement.
User avatar
thanatos_incarnate
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 2012-11-04 20:36

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby wizard10000 » 2015-12-31 15:53

thanatos_incarnate wrote:Could you please name an official statement by Ubuntu personnel or developers that says using external sources is encouraged?


Taken out of context, but let's try this -

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories

In Ubuntu you generally want to have at least Ubuntu's repositories (which may include the install CD) but it is not uncommon to have other repositories (from other packagers) set up.


Taken in context it looks more like this -

In Ubuntu you generally want to have at least Ubuntu's repositories (which may include the install CD) but it is not uncommon to have other repositories (from other packagers) set up. I can see where someone would infer that from what I said, though - my apologies :)

It's important to know that most of the tools you'll want to use in Ubuntu are already in Ubuntu's repositories. You can go search the internet for packages, or even source code, for others, but these will be more difficult to install and won't, most of the time, integrate as well with your system.


You're right, most of the "encouragement" comes from non-official sources but I never said that was official policy, all I said was that it was encouraged. I can see where someone would infer that from what I said though - my apologies :)
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
User avatar
wizard10000
 
Posts: 1218
Joined: 2011-05-09 20:02
Location: everywhere i go, there i am!

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby anticapitalista » 2015-12-31 16:41

Starborn wrote:
anticapitalista wrote:I blame all those distros that attempt to make linux just like windows. Result: windows users who try linux (they might think linux means all distros) do it the windows way i.e. download from wherever.

Do yo mean that or were you kidding? If you mean that, then I think you are not being honest. It is not the distros' fault that Windows users (and I still am one, too) are too... ahem, "dumb" to read up about how downloading and installing software in Linux works. The Debian website explains it clearly enough.


Debian doesn't pretend to be like windows.
antiX "Killah P" - lean and mean.
http://antix.mepis.org
anticapitalista
 
Posts: 295
Joined: 2007-12-14 23:16

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2016-01-02 12:42

wizard10000 wrote:You're right, most of the "encouragement" comes from non-official sources but I never said that was official policy, all I said was that it was encouraged. I can see where someone would infer that from what I said though - my apologies :)

No need to apologise. I just think there's more to this dichotomy of "Debian users have good usage practices" vs "Ubuntu users don't".
I would say there's generally less concern for system stability in the Ubuntu world than here, but I think we should be careful with
grand and stigmatising statements. I've installed a number of Xubuntu LTS release where I've told people to not wildly install stuff
if it's not in the repos and it generally worked. I went down from having to take several support calls on their Windows machines
to practically none once they were over on Ubuntu. Granted, I've mostly dealt with people who have very slowly changing hardware
requirements (a new laptop/desktop every 5-7 years or so), and thus I think they're more of the "don't touch what ain't broken"
mentality anyway. It would probably be different with people who constantly change things on their machines and I think that a lot
of the mix'n match crowd here are former Windows users who did more with their machines than just use them as an appliance.
Maybe gamers curious to see what e.g. the next proprietary driver or Mesa release has to offer and who then end up borking their
system.
User avatar
thanatos_incarnate
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 2012-11-04 20:36

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby golinux » 2016-01-02 15:44

@thanatos_incarnate . . . could you please not format line breaks in your posts. It makes them very difficult to read.
May the FORK be with you!
User avatar
golinux
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-01-10 21:17

I have Synaptic set to always install from stable so I don't actually update from testing apart from a very small number of packages.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=126515&p=604190
"Only the mediocre are always at their best." — Jean Giraudoux
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: Repo mix-and-match hit parade

Postby stevepusser » 2016-01-11 00:03

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
I have Synaptic set to always install from stable so I don't actually update from testing apart from a very small number of packages.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=126515&p=604190


In fairness, if the user is very careful, this can be safe. That the OP didn't see the duplicates in their sources.list didn't raise much confidence in that, though.
The MX Linux repositories: Backports galore! If we don't have something, just ask and we'll try--we like challenges. New packages: Krita 3.3.2.1, Pale Moon 27.6.0, Audacity 2.2.0, mpv 0.27.0, Corebird 1.7.1, Firefox 57.0, SMPlayer 17.11.2
User avatar
stevepusser
 
Posts: 8935
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

fashionable