How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-02 09:50

mardybear wrote:
mor wrote:
I also think transitional/dummy packages are stupid and metapackages are pretty much just for idiots.
I think that having to install half of KDE to get me something like Amarok or Marble is pure insanity: oh if only there was some kde-shim!

Could you please then modify your signature. Nobody should need to love metapackages.

Could you have been more superficial on this one?

Have you actually read my post? Not saying entirely, just a few lines after the ones you quoted?

I'll help you:
mor wrote:I also think transitional/dummy packages are stupid and metapackages are pretty much just for idiots.
I think that having to install half of KDE to get me something like Amarok or Marble is pure insanity: oh if only there was some kde-shim!
(Maybe there is, is there? Please tell me that there is something like that!)

Actually no, I don't think those things are insane or stupid.

(emphasis added)

And have you actually read the thread linked in my signature? Do you actually understand that the title is a pun on a movie title, written by confuseling exactly to explain people who get tangled with metapackages how to deal with them?

No you haven't, please do yourself a favor and read that thread, it'll teach you how metapackages work.

By the way, in this thread where it seems like one can only love or hate something and being neutral is only ok for Switzerland, I don't love or hate metapackages (just like I don't hate or love systemd).
Metapackages are just tools, which I understand (also thanks to the guide by confuseling, reason why I link it in my signature) and use when I need or don't use when I don't need.

mardybear wrote:That's a big part of this lock-in issue. IMO Linux is supposed to be modular. Why should a Desktop Environment dictate which music player or network manager you want to install or remove? In a few years, unless you use Gnome and systemd (you use both) Linux will become much more difficult for others to utilize how they wish (freedom of choice).

In a few years, if I have to bet on any outcome, this issue will have faded and be replaced by the next one, maybe about some new distro based on some new kernel that will compete with the "linuxes". But you might be right, we might be really headed towards disaster, or not. Can we agree that in the meantime we should act like adults, talk about things that are real and not imaginary like Redhat wanting world domination or Poettering wanting to **** everybody in the ass?
Because that's really the problem here.

My issue in fact is not with people against systemd, is with people who hate systemd apriori (likely with the same level of understanding that I have) and who pester every thread with their resentful and bitter tirades, calling names and acting like they have seen the light and imply that everybody else who's not gone crazy about the advent of systemd as they did, is either an idiot or evil and complacent with the supposed dark side they only can see.
They piss me off for their childish behavior (and, admittedly, that's my problem) but more importantly because they do harm to the very cause of all the legitimate and informative anti-systemd criticism getting diluted in a sea of fanatic paranoia (and that my friend, is your problem, our problem).

If I were just a little bit more capable of understanding the technical aspects of the issue and happened to agree on how systemd is bad, I would be ten times more pissed off at these clowns.

Which brings me to PAP.
You can choose to read my "insults" as directed to you, or you can read my posts thinking that you are one of the sane, legitimate and (admired by me) anti-systemd detractors.
It depends on how you see yourself as.

If you are, and see yourself as, a rational and objective person, who understands the technical aspects of the issue and cares about finding ways to work on a solution, directly or indirectly, then why didn't you think I was referring to guys like you when I spoke of "sane" detractors?
I'm pretty sure they know I was referring to them when they read my post(s), and they likely agree with me on the "stop being childish" issue.

But you chose to take offense, it only means to me that you rather identify yourself as one of those who thinks speaking of the apocalypse, mangling Poettering's name to rhyme with bowel movements and acting on blind faith in the fact that anything that has systemd in the name is inherently harmful, is far better and more constructive then getting really informed and acting like adults.

You know why I am not pro or against systemd?
Because I do not understand either.

I am honest about it, I simply have no clue about how one is better, worse, more convenient, less versatile, more adjustable or whatever.
Why would I say so if I was pro-systemd?
Wouldn't I have found at least one or two nice things to say about it?

Oh yes, I'm "defending it"!
What I'm defending is just mature discussion against child talk, is sanity against paranoia, is informative and sound posts against FUD spreading trolling.
And I think I'm doing a favor to the anti-systemd party, helping them in calling out and isolating assholes from within their lines.

I could have chosen to omit the fact I'm using systemd, or Gnome, or even lie and proclaim myself an anti-systemd man: how would you have been able to call me a liar on that?
Indeed, as I said, if I were a systemd detractor I would have been even more vocal about the need to quit with the shenanigans.

But quite frankly, even though I would like you to believe my good faith, I don't want fight you on that, and since it seems you are finally convinced that Debian is gone to the dark side and is no longer good for you, I suppose we won't have to see you anymore. Right?

In any case, take care.

Bye
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2015-05-02 23:04

Is this anti-systemd thing still going on? Good. In TBH, everyone should know a lot about systemd by now. Ignorance is absolutely a shit excuse, because the dabate raged so hotly here that everyone should have taken at least a few minutes to find out about it. Those who didn't really should not even be commenting about systemd at all.
User avatar
buntunub
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 2011-02-11 05:23

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-03 02:54

mor wrote:
Have you actually read my post?

It's all a blur to me. Thanks for bolding for emphasis. Sorry if i offended you.

And have you actually read the thread linked in my signature?
...No you haven't, please do yourself a favor and read that thread, it'll teach you how metapackages work.

You're a scrapper. I like that but you really shouldn't tell people what they have/not read. I read through the link some time ago. I used a metapackage DE for almost 10 years and became quite intimate with metapackages and the hoops required to remove bloat. My opinion is unchanged, don't like them. Not everyone who disagrees with your opinion is ignorant.

By the way, in this thread where it seems like one can only love or hate something...I don't love or hate metapackages (just like I don't hate or love systemd).

The systemd argument will remain bipolar as it's a fundamental shift in the operations of Linuxland, not some trivial new software. It will pretty much make it impossible to run Debian without systemd libraries Jessie forward, as you should know based on the many previous posts on this exact subject.

Can we agree that in the meantime we should act like adults...

I've been an adult for a long time and would never use the language you just utilized.

They piss me off for their childish behavior (and, admittedly, that's my problem) but more importantly because they do harm to the very cause of all the legitimate and informative anti-systemd criticism getting diluted in a sea of fanatic paranoia (and that my friend, is your problem, our problem).

You are correct about the rants and childish behaviours. It will die down as detractors migrate away. Me thinks the recent Jessie stable release has caused commotion. Personally i'm in the process of migrating before Wheezy reaches EOL. FWIW my dislike for systemd is technical - have you read my signature? systemd is just the final straw, Debian and most distributions have become too bloated.

If I were just a little bit more capable of understanding the technical aspects of the issue...

You've claimed ignorance for some time. With all your Debian experience, running testing for years, you are still not capable of making a judgement or understanding the technical merits?

You just read PAP's experience and there are currently at least two other active threads from long time Debian users reluctantly leaving. Do some research and decide for yourself.

The other day there was a new Jessie user who did not yet install wireless firmware. He had to gut /var because the partition filled. By the time he rebooted and installed the firmware, the system reportedly generated something like 50MB of repetitive logs within a few seconds. There are many other Jessie stories on this forum. Of course, you could argue every new release has issues.

Quick research indicates traditional init is based on ~75 files and ~15,000 lines of code vs systemd's >900 files and >125,000 lines. Traditional init has been around and debugged forever and rarely causes problems. systemd is still in active development and is now being used by Debian, once regarded as the most conservative and stable Linux distribution around. Which init system will likely be more problematic? That's just the tip of the iceberg for technical arguments.

Most of the exerienced users on this forum have left in the last few months. I suspect it's much more than paranoia or an unwillingness to change.
800mhz, 512mb ram, dCore-jessie (Tiny Core with Debian Jessie packages) with BusyBox and Fluxbox.
Most don't have computer access, reuse or pay forward an old computer.
User avatar
mardybear
 
Posts: 994
Joined: 2014-01-19 03:30

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-03 04:33

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^systemd hating asshole, guilty as charged! And damn proud of it. Trying to convince me or anybody else avoiding systemd is paranoia or childish is not helping me avoid its stealth installation. If you prefer to have an overbearing, over controlling, bloated buggy piece of corporate-ware so tightly and deeply ingrained in your system, one false move brings the whole f*%#ing house of cards down, that's YOUR prerogative. Do you work for Redhat? Are you close friends with Lennart? What makes you so pro systemd biased? Do you get paid to promote it? Because it's no wunderkind to write home to mama about, that's for f%#*ing sure, it's a piece of bloat-ware $#1+, I've been reading piles of articles of how it screws up, and more appear everyday.

No preaching, if you've got some cool CL tricks to keep that $#1+ out of my system, then we're talking, otherwise...

Edit: Now THIS is paranoia, lol, there's a few truths hidden amongst the jokes, if anything, the read is good for a laugh.
Linux Registered User 533946
User avatar
Linadian
 
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-03 06:00

systemd (Score:5, Insightful)
by rl117 (110595) <rleigh.codelibre@net> on Sunday April 26, 2015 @05:17AM (#49554047) Homepage

After using and developing Debian for 18 years, this is the first release I have no plans to use, all thanks to the gnome and systemd idiocy. It hasn't been a nice experience, seeing a system build up with loving care by so many people over so long being willfully trashed by a small handful of people. I for one have no interest in being RedHat's bitch; if I wanted to be, I'd be a suffering Fedora or CentOS user. Debian has lost its independence and freedom.

I've been using FreeBSD for nearly 18 months now, and rarely boot up Debian on my systems or VMs. Going back 5 years, I'd never have imagined this is the way things would play out. Tragic.

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/04/2 ... e-released

Is anyone familiar with this ex-developer?
800mhz, 512mb ram, dCore-jessie (Tiny Core with Debian Jessie packages) with BusyBox and Fluxbox.
Most don't have computer access, reuse or pay forward an old computer.
User avatar
mardybear
 
Posts: 994
Joined: 2014-01-19 03:30

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby golinux » 2015-05-03 06:13

mardybear wrote:
systemd (Score:5, Insightful)
by rl117 (110595) <rleigh.codelibre@net> on Sunday April 26, 2015 @05:17AM (#49554047) Homepage
Is anyone familiar with this ex-developer?

He is an op on the #devuan channel. I have only seen him participate occasionally.

You might find this interesting.
May the FORK be with you!
User avatar
golinux
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-03 10:48

mardybear wrote:Sorry if i offended you.

Offended me? No, come on, did I say that?
No, we're cool my friend, I never felt disrespected or anything, I hope the same it true for you.

Actually I have had you in my good book for a long time and it is mostly because of this that I was surprised you missed those things.

mardybear wrote:You're a scrapper. I like that but you really shouldn't tell people what they have/not read.

I understand how it may have come across the wrong way and I'm sorry for it.
The reason why I emphasized you needed to read it, is because you missed (at least that's how I perceived it, but I think confuseling too did) the point of that thread, of its title and why I don't mean that "people should love metapackages".
When you said I should have removed the link from my signature, you made me think that, beside not having read the next two lines, you were focusing on the literary meaning of the title, and not on the content of the guide, which is simply aimed at teaching users how to deal with metapackages.

mardybear wrote:
By the way, in this thread where it seems like one can only love or hate something...I don't love or hate metapackages (just like I don't hate or love systemd).

The systemd argument will remain bipolar as it's a fundamental shift in the operations of Linuxland, not some trivial new software. It will pretty much make it impossible to run Debian without systemd libraries Jessie forward, as you should know based on the many previous posts on this exact subject.

I agree it'll always divide opinions, but can you honestly say you don't believe I'm not partial after all I've said and will say?

But yes, I understand the concern about system making it impossible to run a system without some libraries.
The reason why I think it is over exaggerated is that in my particular point of view, as long as the libraries do not do harm (which is often implied but untrue) and as long as all things systemd can remain inactive allowing one to run sysvinit or any other init (as it is currently possible, am I wrong on this?), I don't see a huge problem, from a philosophical standpoint.
Sure, technically it may be annoying, a redundancy to have inactive unused libs (although, honestly, how much space we're talking about here?) and inelegant, but practically, until it will be mandatory to run systemd, and not just to have a few interfacing libs, I can't accept the "there's no choice" and "the world is going to shit" arguments.

I can and do take seriously the concerns about possible future development that could force users to run only systemd, and that scares me because even though I don't really care for me, I am a freedom supporter first and I wouldn't agree with that for one second.

But right now I don't see any violation and as a user I have no reason to distrust Debian or even systemd.

Maybe naively, I trust in the good faith of those who do the development and in the fact that especially those who oppose systemd can look at the code for shenanigans. In fact I believe that in the context of free software people will fork stuff before a totalitarian turn of events.
If I'm gonna be a fool on this so be it, I will regret not seeing it coming and pull up my sleeves to help fixing the mess.

But right now, nobody can back up with facts and serious reasoning any such outcome and I think it is fair to ask to stick to what's real and be objective and rational about it.

mardybear wrote:I've been an adult for a long time and would never use the language you just utilized.

What language did I use?

I am not one who refrains from the occasional "bad word", on this board there is a fair tolerance for a moderate amount of foul mouth expression and I have never received a message from either the staff or regular users about me abusing this freedom (actually if anything, the opposite).
Besides, what I'm referring to is not the language in itself, but the attitude behind the language.

I have called out such users, or better yet I have called out the typology of users. Indeed I care about the final language only to a certain extent, like for instance writing Microshit or Micro$oft doesn't make any difference in my book, it is just as foolish.

So yes, I have definitely took my liberties and I have been harsh with them, deservedly so, but I ask you to tell me where and when I have been on the same level, if that is what you meant.

Anyway, what's the point of you saying you don't do it?
Even if I was accusing you directly, which I'm not, would proving that you don't do it make the issue vanish?

Does a multitude, the majority indeed, of anti-systemd detractors resort to childish, nonproductive behavior?
Can we agree it is a bad thing?

That's all.

mardybear wrote:You are correct about the rants and childish behaviours. It will die down as detractors migrate away.

No, it won't.
Detractors are both those who are constructive and those who are not. But even if you meant fanatic detractors as opposed to legitimate detractors, the latter will get lost among the former and the whole anti-systemd crowd will easily end up being remembered for the antics and the fud instead of the serious, legitimate and competent claims of those who know what they are complaining about.
I wonder how much did dasein weigh this issue in when he wrote the revisionist essay. I fear not enough.

The last to migrate (if they ever will) will be the ones who chant Poettering's name or speak of the Redhat apocalypse, not the competent ones who I bet feel frustrated and disheartened by having to fight this battle with such counterproductive co-supporters.

mardybear wrote:
If I were just a little bit more capable of understanding the technical aspects of the issue...

You've claimed ignorance for some time. With all your Debian experience, running testing for years, you are still not capable of making a judgement or understanding the technical merits?

No, I'm not.
And thank you for asking directly so I can also respond to buntunub who could have done the same. :P

First of all, I may be naturally inclined to understate the extent of my expertise in general (quite a few of my closest friends and acquaintances have told me that) which often makes me disqualify myself from "jury duties" on account of being not competent enough. I still believe that my standard is not too high and that everybody else's is waaay too low, but hey, you gotta go with a median right?

In this case however, I don't think I'm understating my true competence and knowledge and I don't think it is a big sin since I never argued technical stuff.
If you are at least as competent as me, you know that running Testing/Unstable for more than a decade at best accounts for being careful in reading apt-listbugs when upgrading.
I may know a few things here and there, but ultimately I'm just an average user who, by the way, in the last five years or so has gradually lost most of his "sex drive" towards becoming more knowledgeable about computer related stuff (this means motivation to go the extra mile are far lower than they once were).

When I say I don't have the necessary understanding, and I also imply that the vast majority of those who claim they do also don't, I refer to the fact that for me truly understanding the issue means being close to a programmer, not to a user who runs scripts and loads/unloads services.

Most of the claims, the serious ones, against systemd are very technical and only people who can look at the code can say they have at least a basic skillset to make an informed evaluation. Sometimes even that may not be enough.

The rest of people simply judges based on guts, hearsay or on the trust (which can on occasions be ok) they have on other people they think know better.
This sadly, is true for everything, run your mind through how most people form opinions.

In this situation, I could make my mind and become a systemd supporter or detractor simply based on what someone who I think is knowledgeable enough thinks, but I can't do it for two reasons: it is hard for me to decide this way without even personally knowing my trusted people, and anyway the ones I know and somewhat trust are divided as well.

Also, there is the divide within Debian. If they are so divided, then it can't be any easier for me to just pick a side.

I went with systemd simply because it was the most convenient option for me.
As a Gnome user, who happens to be very comfortable with the new desktop paradigm despite how much some of you despise it (and I don't think you are old farts for not liking the shell), accepting systemd was not a problem, considering I didn't have any prejudice.
I always wondered if I didn't like the shell and I would have moved to xfce (I think that's where I would have moved from gnome 2.x), I would have most likely stayed with sysvinit, but remained neutral just the same.

Now, I certainly am guilty of not making any effort to understand more of the technical side of it, so there you have it buntunub, you nailed me. :lol:
I'll tell you more, I don't think I'll ever fancy studying to understand it.

But have I ever discussed technical matters about systemd?
Have I ever said anything, positive or negative about technical aspects of systemd or sysvinit?

The only things I have said concern the need to have people discussing it seriously, without childish attitudes and other non constructive behaviors.
This can be said about pretty much any issue.

Also, I may have spent a few words about some "philosophical" aspects like freedom of choice and software freedom in general, but those subjects hardly require much technical knowledge of this issue and, anyway, I have never gone too far if some knowledge was required.

I challenge you to find something I wrote in the past that contradicts what I just said.

Also, I would like you to argue about how my honest position is not desirable instead of that of most, who claim to have the knowledge, when it is statistically difficult to believe that in such a technical issue an overwhelming majority understands enough to make an informed decision while I'm the only one who confesses not to be up to the task.
C'mon!

mardybear wrote:You just read PAP's experience and there are currently at least two other active threads from long time Debian users reluctantly leaving. Do some research and decide for yourself.

I think you read enough of my posts and by now you should have noticed how I tend to speak of general cases and make analogies to depict potential scenarios.
Anecdotal evidence will always be just that.

Users have been leaving and embracing distros long before systemd came along.
Now you are noticing those who do so because of it, but this is a very easy to detect cognitive bias (systemd is the big headline), don't get fooled by it.

Sure systemd made its victims, but then again, people come and go all the time and systemd is just in the mix with much more stuff.

mardybear wrote:The other day there was a new Jessie user who did not yet install wireless firmware. He had to gut /var because the partition filled. By the time he rebooted and installed the firmware, the system reportedly generated something like 50MB of repetitive logs within a few seconds. There are many other Jessie stories on this forum. Of course, you could argue every new release has issues.

Quick research indicates traditional init is based on ~75 files and ~15,000 lines of code vs systemd's >900 files and >125,000 lines. Traditional init has been around and debugged forever and rarely causes problems. systemd is still in active development and is now being used by Debian, once regarded as the most conservative and stable Linux distribution around. Which init system will likely be more problematic? That's just the tip of the iceberg for technical arguments.

Honestly I don't care discussing about technical points like this one,as I said, I don't have the knowledge to do so.
I do care about reading people talk about technical stuff however, but rationally and objectively, and if every other post I have to go through the rants and the antics, it makes my indirect informing less enjoyable and less productive.

mardybear wrote:Most of the exerienced users on this forum have left in the last few months. I suspect it's much more than paranoia or an unwillingness to change.

No, most of them have left a long time ago, slowly bleeding out from this community.
As I said before some have certainly felt like systemd was the last straw, but to say that most have left in the last few months is wrong and unfair. ;)

Wow, you made it this far, kudos!

Bye :)
Last edited by mor on 2015-05-11 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby confuseling » 2015-05-03 13:30

mardybear wrote:...
Quick research indicates traditional init is based on ~75 files and ~15,000 lines of code vs systemd's >900 files and >125,000 lines. Traditional init has been around and debugged forever and rarely causes problems. systemd is still in active development and is now being used by Debian, once regarded as the most conservative and stable Linux distribution around. Which init system will likely be more problematic? That's just the tip of the iceberg for technical arguments.
...


I really don't see that as a valid comparison, both because the systemd project isn't just an init system, it incorporates lots of other plumbing (for good or ill), and since SysV means that every service has to ship with (sometimes complex) init scripts, which are pretty near universally acknowledged to be hard to debug.

Making things more coherent may well reduce overall complexity, and eliminating the boilerplate is certainly in line with Debian's 'no convenience copies' philosophy.
The Forum's search box is terrible. Use site specific search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... terms+here
confuseling
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: 2009-10-21 01:03

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-05-03 14:01

Just for the record, I installed Linux From Scratch with systemd last weekend and the `./configure --help` list was extensive -- pretty much all the features can be disabled at compile-time...

If you don't like compiling stuff, you can always use:
Code: Select all
# systemctl mask <thing you don't like>

This can even be done without booting the system by symlinking the .service, .socket or .target to /dev/null
Black Lives Matter

Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 12747
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-03 14:40

TL;DR was created for a particular poster in this thread, wow is it *windy* (oral flatulence) in here, somebody open a window (not a Lenndows window, a real one).
Linux Registered User 533946
User avatar
Linadian
 
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby confuseling » 2015-05-03 15:06

Mor's posts may often be long, but they're well thought out, written and structured.

Yours are definitely short - and that's the best thing that can be said about them.
The Forum's search box is terrible. Use site specific search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... terms+here
confuseling
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: 2009-10-21 01:03

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-03 18:18

mor....Thanks for your response - i read through to the end :)

Don't want to clutter up the thread. Primarily want to say no hard feelings - everything is good.

My language comment was simply in response to this, nothing more. Even though you are simply repeating the sentiment of others, it sounded to me like you were getting quite worked up. I realize it's a dictionary word and all, but i like to keep things really clean.
mor wrote:
...like Redhat wanting world domination or Poettering wanting to **** everybody in the ass?


Yes we are all experts, as well as above average drivers! So it's easy to become arrogant or over estimate abilities with a few years experience. In that sense i applaud your viewpoint. On the flipside, everyone has to make a judgement sometime, we can't all be renowned experts or top notch programmers. In the retail world consumers vote with their wallets and in the world of OS geeks, the vote is made by which software gets installed. After all, if you can't have control over the software you run, may as well just install Windows right?

Must admit i'm a little confused but don't want to get into a discussion. You want rational discussion, but nothing technical. What then are we talking about when every anti-systemd non-technical argument appears to get categorized as paranoid and irrational and the OS geeks on the forum are not competent to make a technical judgement.

In the end, everyone needs to make up their own mind, whether they are in/competent or care/don't care. There's really not much more to discuss, since everyone's already picked sides and made a decision. As already mentioned, installing the software involves making a decision.

confuseling wrote:
I really don't see that as a valid comparison, both because the systemd project isn't just an init system, it incorporates lots of other plumbing (for good or ill)

You don't see it as a valid comparison because the Linux world has never yet been enveloped by such an all encompassing software suite. That's really the problem, systemd is no longer just init. If a user wants to stick more closely with Unix ideals, systemd is blasphemy. Your last comment to Linadian is nothing more than stirring the pot, really just trolling and from a staff member nonetheless :(
800mhz, 512mb ram, dCore-jessie (Tiny Core with Debian Jessie packages) with BusyBox and Fluxbox.
Most don't have computer access, reuse or pay forward an old computer.
User avatar
mardybear
 
Posts: 994
Joined: 2014-01-19 03:30

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-03 18:31

confuseling wrote:Mor's posts may often be long, but they're well thought out, written and structured.

Yours are definitely short - and that's the best thing that can be said about them.


At least I don't shill beta bloatware designed to rot the Linux eco-system from the inside out. Keep on keepin' on drinking that kool-aid and follow the rest of the lennings (that's not a typo) off the cliff. It astounds me how people involved with this distribution (computer/software engineers and geniuses) that has struggled to maintain freedom and openness for years are suddenly smitten by a piece of garbage software that *might* increase your boot time by a few seconds. If that's all you people do is boot your computers all day, over and over again, you've got a lot more to worry about than a few "detractors", lol. I don't need to go in to detail about systemd, that's been done to death, the fact remains it's an over-controlling buggy beta bloatware, there's no escaping that fact, that's what I don't understand, how could smart people fall for this $#1+, like some kind of bad Stepford Wives movie, or you've turned pod people or some $#1+, it's just bizarre, common sense has gone completely out the window.

Like I said before, Debian's insane decision to *embrace* systemd is not only the death of this distro, they killed off a pillar of GNU in the process. Linux is being pushed back to the fringes where it came from because of one punk's beta bloatware and his corporate employer. AAMOF confused one, I could care less what your purple @$$ thinks of my posts, no amount of propaganda from you or your long winded friend will change reality, Debian died April 25th, 2015, RIP. I can't wait for some pimply faced 12 year old whiz kids to bring down systemd, and oh, Debian, amongst others in the process, now THAT will be something to celebrate (in a "we told you so" kind of way). :lol:

https://systemdexploit.wordpress.com/

Let me ask you this oh wise one(s), if the Gnome DE requires a systemd upgrade to fix a problem mid Jessie release, is Debian going to open its mouth every time and be baby spoon fed whatever Lennart and Redhat churn out? That's a serious question, it might be a little embarassing for you but it's a definite possiblity and reality, albeit a very sad one.
Linux Registered User 533946
User avatar
Linadian
 
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby confuseling » 2015-05-03 18:42

mardybear wrote:...You don't see it as a valid comparison because the Linux world has never yet been enveloped by such an all encompassing software suite. That's really the problem, systemd is no longer just init. If a user wants to stick more closely with Unix ideals, systemd is blasphemy...


systemd is a lot of separate binaries. The possibly valid thing that people object to is that it's all in the same tree.

BSD core systems are written in the same tree. Are they not UNIX?

The philosophy makes sense as far as it goes - things should be interchangeable *where it's useful*. Sometimes it isn't - the kernel, xorg and so on are (or were... not sure much is happening in xorg land any more) developed fairly monolithically.

So the question really is: is this a case where it's useful to develop something monolithically? I haven't a clue, I don't know enough about Linux plumbing. But I take it as a given that if most distros and several DEs embrace something fairly quickly, it looks good to people who know a hell of a lot more about it than I do.

I don't doubt that once systemd has stabilised (if it stabilises... it's also distinctly possible that something else will replace it, or fundamental design flaws will be uncovered, and it'll be abandoned) parts of it will be reimplemented (this is already happening insofar as logind is being separated out). They're not going to get away with deliberately obfuscating / changing the design to stop people doing this - there's too much invested in Linux's independence, and we have the source.

Debate the design or philosophy all you like. But if anyone insists on calling it a virus, or a corporate takeover of the tech committee, or calling Mr Poettering 'Lenfart' I reserve the right to laugh at them, they have it coming :)
The Forum's search box is terrible. Use site specific search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... terms+here
confuseling
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: 2009-10-21 01:03

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-03 20:11

mardybear wrote:My language comment was simply in response to this, nothing more. Even though you are simply repeating the sentiment of others, it sounded to me like you were getting quite worked up. I realize it's a dictionary word and all, but i like to keep things really clean.
mor wrote:...like Redhat wanting world domination or Poettering wanting to **** everybody in the ass?

I suspected you meant something like that, but well, you said it yourself you got those weren't my words so I think it is fair to say it was misleading to suggest I was on the same level of certain people.
But thanks for explaining. ;)

mardybear wrote:Yes we are all experts, as well as above average drivers! So it's easy to become arrogant or over estimate abilities with a few years experience. In that sense i applaud your viewpoint. On the flipside, everyone has to make a judgement sometime, we can't all be renowned experts or top notch programmers. In the retail world consumers vote with their wallets and in the world of OS geeks, the vote is made by which software gets installed. After all, if you can't have control over the software you run, may as well just install Windows right?

I understand what you say, but I can't force myself to agree.
I know it is probably utopian to think that a fairer and more accurate self assessment should be expected from anyone, but what can I say, that's how I think it should be.
I try to do that for me, if others don't I'll try to convince them, if they tell me to shut up I'll be sad, if one will follows my example I'll smile.

mardybear wrote:Must admit i'm a little confused but don't want to get into a discussion. You want rational discussion, but nothing technical.

No no, you are obviously confused, I'm sorry. ;)

I do want the technical discussion!
I said *I* don't want to be part of it but only because, again, I don't belong to that discussion. But I want to read it, I want people to debate the pros and cons, the dangers and advantages of the matter, just rationally and objectively.
This is hardly ever happening, here and elsewhere and it makes it even harder for me to make my mind up.

mardybear wrote:What then are we talking about when every anti-systemd non-technical argument appears to get categorized as paranoid and irrational and the OS geeks on the forum are not competent to make a technical judgement.

Oh come on, you can't think I mean that.
There certainly can be non technical arguments about systemd, it is about how users conduct themselves in these discussions.
It is an attitude and a behavior problem. It is reasoning with guts against reasoning with brains.
This is something that can be applied to any topic of conversation, it doesn't relate strictly to systemd's discussions, technical or otherwise.

I really want the debate and I praise and encourage the anti-systemd people to go around and explain, educate and teach the nuances of the issue, but these things cannot be done by assuming that everybody who doesn't piss on Poettering's name is in cahoots with Redhat and NSA for the forceful enslavement of the few enlightened who know better than everybody else "just because they know it".

mardybear wrote:In the end, everyone needs to make up their own mind, whether they are in/competent or care/don't care. There's really not much more to discuss, since everyone's already picked sides and made a decision. As already mentioned, installing the software involves making a decision.

Of course we need to make up our minds, but I'd rather have a crowd of users aware of their limitations that end up undecided, than a crowd of users who are deluded into thinking they are absolutely and utterly right.

Take care my friend. ;)

Bye
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

fashionable