How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-03 20:46

confuseling wrote:
systemd is a lot of separate binaries.

Thanks for your response confuseling. In hindsight it's always easy to nitpick someone's response, just some impressions. No response required...i need to move on.

Most forum members are simple desktop/laptop OS enthusiasts. Does Debian or Linux really require more binaries and background daemons? Our OSs booted just fine the old school way. The more complex the software the more potential for problem.

The philosophy makes sense as far as it goes - things should be interchangeable *where it's useful*. Sometimes it isn't - the kernel, xorg and so on are (or were... not sure much is happening in xorg land any more) developed fairly monolithically...So the question really is: is this a case where it's useful to develop something monolithically?

Isn't it useful to keep init seperate, just as userspace is kept separate. Kernels are easily interchangeable. Users can still choose to run with TTY, framebuffer or Xvesa instead of Xorg. When Wayland is readily utilized, hopefully not everything else becomes obsolete.

In my opinion monolithic is not desirable, it's really just a shortcut to get everything installed in one fell swoop and i choose to build from the ground up. Hundreds of years later, that's still how houses get built.

But I take it as a given that if most distros and several DEs embrace something fairly quickly, it looks good to people who know a hell of a lot more about it than I do.

From many on this and other Linux forums, the change wasn't embraced willingly. Users who require newer software may eventually have no choice but to change. When leaded fuel was no longer processed, car owners had to switch to unleaded. The switch then also occurred quickly, the next time the tank was empty.

I don't doubt that once systemd has stabilised (if it stabilises...

Maybe you just made this statement to pacify - not sure. If systemd is not yet stable, what the heck is it doing in a stable Debian release? (sorry mor for the h-word :))

...there's too much invested in Linux's independence, and we have the source.

To me this doesn't hold water, the systemd codebase is huge and complex, developed by a team over several years. Even an experienced and competent programmer would be hardpressed to make substantial changes to the code.

Debate the design or philosophy all you like. But if anyone insists on calling it a virus, or a corporate takeover of the tech committee, or calling Mr Poettering 'Lenfart' I reserve the right to laugh at them, they have it coming :)

As before i agree this is over the top. It's really just an OS but some have trouble getting over the anger...it takes time. Glad people vent their feelings, imagine if all this aggression and anger was pent up inside.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-03 20:52

Linadian wrote:Let me ask you this oh wise one(s), if the Gnome DE requires a systemd upgrade to fix a problem mid Jessie release, is Debian going to open its mouth every time and be baby spoon fed whatever Lennart and Redhat churn out? That's a serious question, it might be a little embarassing for you but it's a definite possiblity and reality, albeit a very sad one.


Your obvious lack of answer(s) to a serious question is very telling, spoon fed it is, let me wipe the dribble with your bib for ya.

Image

You're both sad sell-outs, you should be ashamed and renounce your loyalty to Linux and FOSS.

Edit: Oh come on, Lennfart is hysterical, it suits the little gas-bag, have you listened to his rants? Too funny. :P :lol:
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Roel63 » 2015-05-04 09:38

mardybear wrote:It's really just an OS but some have trouble getting over the anger...it takes time. Glad people vent their feelings, imagine if all this aggression and anger was pent up inside.


Indeed and comparable with the anger that came with Gnome 3 that was the Wheezy "default". And what do we see now? Mate and Cinnamon packed as DE options upon installing Jessie.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-04 12:26

mardybear wrote:… but some have trouble getting over the anger...it takes time. Glad people vent their feelings, imagine if all this aggression and anger was pent up inside.

Let me comment on this please.

These users are not venting their feelings in harmless ways, their behavior is the equivalent of those who get into bars and snap off to some poor guy who looks at them or hit on other people's girls to pick up fights.
That's not positive, not at all.
If this forum was the real life, there would have been countless brawls because of people that can't keep their anger and bad attitude in check, and regardless of how good or bad they would have fared, there's nothing to be glad about them venting.
Indeed even if this is not real life, so no real fight ever broke out, the anger they vent is anger absorbed by others, all in all the balance might as well be even.

As bad as it is when people push down anger and then release it in violent ways, this is not their personal fight club.
There's something called Anger Management, there are meetings even in small towns these days: them going to these meetings is something to be glad about.

Bye :)
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby acewiza » 2015-05-04 14:21

mardybear wrote:Hundreds of years later, that's still how houses get built.

mardybear wrote:When leaded fuel was no longer processed, car owners had to switch to unleaded.

I get upset, no even angry, when people compare software to houses and cars. :lol:
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-05-04 14:27

mardybear wrote:Hundreds of years later, that's still how houses get built.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/v ... hina-video
:P
(Sorry for the off-topic)
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-04 19:43

Sure is easy to get embattled.

@mor: Thanks for calling me friend. I also consider you a friend...full of peace and wisdom. Anger management good, agree with all your points. Not sure what to say. A post that, in your opinion, goes too far should be reported. Unfortunately there is no sheriff in town. Most forums any member who willingly and repeatedly disrupts conversation or obviously crosses the line gets banned.

@Head_on_a_Stick: Joking right? There's no magic, one layer at a time. As you've built Linux from Scratch and toyed with TinyCore, you know better than most how a system gets built up.

Obviously you know this but for the benefit of others, a Debian minimal install is hardly minimal at all. Debian has already painstakingly set up the file system, init system, default configuration files, kernel, package manager and meticulously tested to ensure all software plays nice together. Ground up.

There are several types of 3D printers, but all involve the same basic approach for “printing” an object: transferring a substance in multiple layers onto a building surface, beginning with the bottom layer.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/how-e ... -1.1371800

Just to keep this post even a bit on topic (avoid systemd). It is obviously easiest to use an OS that does not utilize systemd or build a system from scratch, rather than install Jessie and jump through hoops to replace systemd and then hope the system still allows you to utilize the software you require. IMO metapackages are no different.

@Roel63: Well the anger or rebellion in the case of systemd is warranted. Yes Debian makes it very easy to change a DE or WM, but if you ever have the time try installing Jessie, switch from systemd to traditional init and then installing the DE and all the software you want without incorporating systemd or systemd libraries. Or easier, just review some of the many posts on this subject in the forum.

@acewiza: Thanks for the humour, my points are still valid.

peace out
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-04 20:23

I'd like to clear something up, outspoken revolutionaries and dissidents are the ones you thank when great humanitarian tragedies are avoided, not the poison pill swallowing wimps that cave to every little thing that's foisted on them. Just because you have a "can't we all get along" approach or attitude, it doesn't make you right or better, all you're really doing is implying that if anybody doesn't agree with YOU and what YOU like, they're somehow red-eyed psychotic and crazy. Shrinks could actually deduce from this that you may be a passive aggressive sociopath. You can spin all the fluff you want, there's always counter-spin. :P
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-05-04 20:47

mardybear wrote:@Head_on_a_Stick: Joking right?

Yes, sorry -- didn't mean to wind you up.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mardybear » 2015-05-04 21:25

Me wound up... :shock: ... :x ... :evil: ... :twisted: ........... :wink:

Thanks, now i've gotta drink decaf for the rest of the day!
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-05 07:18

mardybear wrote:A post that, in your opinion, goes too far should be reported. Unfortunately there is no sheriff in town. Most forums any member who willingly and repeatedly disrupts conversation or obviously crosses the line gets banned.

I understand why you came to that conclusion, but the "reporting" I spoke of is not intended to be a policing course of action inside a particular forum.
I am actually against any type of censorship, and I think that in any forum, beside obvious spam, pretty much nothing should ever be deleted or taken down.

No, what I meant is basically doing what I am doing, which is to call for a mature way of debating. I'm suggesting and asking to all the systemd detractors (but indirectly and hopefully implicitly, also to the systemd supporters, although we can't say they are making the same amount of noise, for obvious reasons of course) to quit with the antics and argue seriously.
More importantly, and that's where the reporting thing may have gotten confusing, I'm suggesting and asking the already serious systemd detractors to huddle up, look around and tell the bad apples in their midst to get their act together because they are making the serious ones look just as fanatical.

So if you think about it, what I'm all about in this discussion is really nothing that relates to systemd specifically, but it is more a general invitation to "good arguing". Take all my posts, substitute systemd with any other topic and they should be just as relevant.

Bye :)
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby golinux » 2015-05-05 07:22

mor . . .your avatar suits you well in an generic, pontificating sort of way. Have you ever considered that brevity is a virtue?
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby mor » 2015-05-05 09:02

I have and, alas, I struggle to keep things short.

On one hand there is the fact that I like to be exhaustive, which coupled with the fact that I feel obligated to respond to each and every point (which I'm forcing more and more not to do), always initiates an exponential enlargement of my replies. On the other hand there is what I guess is probably an insecurity about being able to let others understand the nuances of what I say, which causes me to stretch my thoughts a lot and, incidentally, make my points less likely to come across.

But I am aware of the problem and I do work on it. If you are careful, you may notice that on occasions, even regardless of how long my posts turn out to be, I am less dispersive and much more to the point.

As for the avatar, and I know you know exactly what it is, I think it has given me more hassles than the mere enjoyment of a silly outfit for RMS.
A change is in order. ;)

Bye
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2015-05-05 11:40

You make me laugh, what good is debate now?! Systemd is not some private, part-time project by a lone developer, its developer and development are paid for by a corporation who's goal is to be the main supplier and tech support to anybody not using Microsoft or Apple, etc. This is the same as when Microsoft decided to allow updates to pirate copies of Windows, even illicit adoption is better than no adoption at all. The buggy, secretive beta bloatware Trojan is in the castle already, no amount of debate will get it to leave unless a huge exploit or (on purpose) backdoor(s) are discovered. In the meantime, put those flowers back in your hair, go back to San Francisco and drop your acid, I smell a hippie. Ironically hippie no longer stands for hip, now it means hypocrite. :roll: :lol:

You're not a politician and you don't own Debian, it's not your job to talk people in to swallowing bitter poison pill(s) or to calm them down, you're a joke.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby deltaflyer » 2015-05-05 14:13

Ladies/Gentlemen. may i point out that personal attacks may be construed as cyber-bullying and steps may have to be taken.i do not point the finger specifically,but,please keep in mind, the forum rules.i will be monitoring this "debate" to ensure it stays civil
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