How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-09 22:36

goulo wrote:Just to sanity-check - if you remove all libsystemd* files, then you're necessarily giving up dbus, policykit, and various other stuff which (in my limited understanding) depend on them and are pretty commonly considered "essential" even for those using using a light WM or desktop like LXDE instead of Gnome or other heavy desktops directly requiring systemd, right?


working on a list of software that doesnt depend on any systemd software
http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtop ... =11&t=3014

I can't say how happy I am that this is happening.
This is the happiest moment of my day (and I have been really enjoying Debian today, as never yet!
Keep it up!
adenukolnis,
May the Structures of Power of the Universe keep your mind clear and bright and your solutions incisive and simple for the masses!
M. R.
timbgo
 
Posts: 265
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-10 02:39

adenukolnis wrote:
goulo wrote:Just to sanity-check - if you remove all libsystemd* files, then you're necessarily giving up dbus, policykit, and various other stuff


...[snip]...

Concretely, I see that I currently have installed these 3 libsystemd files:
ii libsystemd-id128-0:i386 208-8 i386 systemd 128 bit ID utility library
ii libsystemd-journal0:i386 208-8 i386 systemd journal utility library
ii libsystemd-login0:i386 208-8 i386 systemd login utility library
which all show a maze of things depending on them...

Correct. Those are the parts that a LOT of stuff depends on. None of those is systemd the init system. So you can have those and still not be using systemd as the init ssytem.


How about all this bunch, after one day serious (although not completed yet) efforts at removing systemd:
How can systemd be uninstalled?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=117276&p=552727#p552727
Pls. see there what remains after a day's woth of removing systemd (not all options tried yet).
M.R.
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Posts: 265
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-10 17:10

If you find that a systemd related package is pulled in as a dependency and you understand that it is not needed, there is a way to remove the unnecessary package by creating a dummy package with the same name but with a higher version number. The tool to use is equivs.

http://www.brain-dump.org/blog/entry/40 ... _in_Debian
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
User avatar
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-10 20:01

edbarx wrote:If you find that a systemd related package is pulled in as a dependency and you understand that it is not needed, there is a way to remove the unnecessary package by creating a dummy package with the same name but with a higher version number. The tool to use is equivs.

http://www.brain-dump.org/blog/entry/40 ... _in_Debian

Thanks for looking into it, edbarx.
https://packages.debian.org/squeeze/equivs
However, if I went and tried to do it, it is not at all likely that it would be something really useful and reliable, without a lot of time and effort on my side.
And that, IIUC, is exactly what Debian developer Wookey did, and there was quite some talk about it on the debian-devel mail-list that I reported.

( this same topic that you are reading, but first post )
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770#p550137

And I sent a mail to those developers in that regard, I think I have to try and resend that mail:
But that could protract, as I will have to capture and analyze the traffic, if I do.

I have repeatedly asked Debian users who are reading this topic, and I am asking again, since, as I explained already, find link to forums.gentoo.org with title "Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper..." IIRC... I am censored, and I believe the mail didn't go to those developers.

Pls. somebody send the notice about this topic, and our woes with systemd weeded into our systems, to Wookey, mirabilos and others, who may very well still not be aware that we need their help!

The instructions how even a newbie can send a mail to those addresses is in the third page of this topic that you are reading:

( this topic, third page )
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484

If I go and try to resend that email, it will take time, because I have to be capturing, so I know what my provider might be doing against me or not (how sad)...

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 00:31

I ventured into uninstalling dbus* pulseaudio* and policykit*.
I first set:

/etc/apt/preferences:
Code: Select all
Package: *systemd*
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: *dbus*
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: *policykit*
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: *pulseaudio*
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1


then issued the lines with "--purge" from a few posts ago.

apt-get autoremove --purge dbus*
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Package 'python-dbus-common' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'python2.4-dbus' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'libdbusmenu-glib0' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'dbus-1-utils' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'dbus-glib-1-dev' is not installed, so not removed
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The following extra packages will be installed:
  libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0 libldb1 pinentry-curses
Suggested packages:
  pinentry-doc
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  at-spi2-core* ca-certificates-java* dbus* dbus-x11* default-jre*
  default-jre-headless* emacs* emacs23* ffmpeg* fonts-lyx* fonts-opensymbol*
  galculator* gconf-service* ghostscript* gimp* gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0*
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  libtwolame0* libupnp6* libusageenvironment1* libva-x11-1* libvcdinfo0*
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  libwebkitgtk-3.0-0* libwebp5* libwnck22* libwpd-0.9-9* libwpg-0.2-2*
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  lxappearance* lxde-common* lxde-core* lxinput* lxlauncher* lxmusic* lxpanel*
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  qtcore4-l10n* rtkit* samba-libs* sane-utils* synaptic* tzdata-java*
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  wireshark* xarchiver* xfonts-mathml* xmms2-core* xscreensaver*
  xul-ext-https-everywhere* xulrunner-17.0* yelp*
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pinentry-curses
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0 libldb1
2 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 213 to remove and 145 not upgraded.
Need to get 2104 kB of archives.
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Do you want to continue? [Y/n] WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
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Install these packages without verification? [y/N] Get:1 http://192.168.3.5/Debian/deb-2/ jessie/main pinentry-curses amd64 0.8.3-2 [29.3 kB]
Get:2 http://192.168.3.5/Debian/deb-1/ jessie/main libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0 amd64 2.4.4-2 [1965 kB]
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dpkg: libyajl2:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 libraptor2-0:amd64 depends on libyajl2 (>= 2.0.4).

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dpkg: libreoffice-core: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 python3-uno depends on libreoffice-core (= 1:4.1.6~rc2-1+b1).

Removing libreoffice-core (1:4.1.6~rc2-1+b1) ...
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dpkg: libgtk-3-0:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 wireshark depends on libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.7.10).

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dpkg: libcups2:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 samba-libs:amd64 depends on libcups2 (>= 1.6.0).
 libgtk2.0-0:amd64 depends on libcups2 (>= 1.6.0).

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dpkg: libdbus-1-3:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 rtkit depends on libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2).
 libdbus-glib-1-2:amd64 depends on libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.2.16).

Removing libdbus-1-3:amd64 (1.8.6-1) ...
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dpkg: libgtk2.0-0:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 xarchiver depends on libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.10.0).
 python-gtk2 depends on libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0); however:
  Package libgtk2.0-0:amd64 is to be removed.
 pinentry-gtk2 depends on libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.10.0).

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Removing libreoffice-common (1:4.1.6~rc2-1) ...
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice/share/prereg/': No such file or directory
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice/share/': No such file or directory
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice/program/': No such file or directory
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice': No such file or directory
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice': No such file or directory
Purging configuration files for libreoffice-common (1:4.1.6~rc2-1) ...
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice/share/config': No such file or directory
rmdir: failed to remove '/var/lib/libreoffice/share': No such file or directory
Removing libreoffice-style-tango (1:4.1.6~rc2-1) ...
Processing triggers for mime-support (3.56) ...
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Processing triggers for ca-certificates (20140325) ...
Updating certificates in /etc/ssl/certs... 0 added, 0 removed; done.
Running hooks in /etc/ca-certificates/update.d....done.
Processing triggers for doc-base (0.10.5) ...
Processing 2 removed doc-base files...
Registering documents with dwww...
Registering documents with scrollkeeper...
Selecting previously unselected package pinentry-curses.
(Reading database ... 232703 files and directories currently installed.)
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Unpacking pinentry-curses (0.8.3-2) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.6.7.1-1) ...
(Reading database ... 232711 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing python-gtk2 (2.24.0-3+b1) ...
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dpkg: pinentry-gtk2: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested:
 gnupg-agent depends on pinentry-gtk2 | pinentry-curses | pinentry; however:
  Package pinentry-gtk2 is to be removed.
  Package pinentry-curses is not configured yet.
  Package pinentry is not installed.
  Package pinentry-gtk2 which provides pinentry is to be removed.
  Package pinentry-curses which provides pinentry is not configured yet.
 gnupg-agent depends on pinentry-gtk2 | pinentry-curses | pinentry; however:
  Package pinentry-gtk2 is to be removed.
  Package pinentry-curses is not configured yet.
  Package pinentry is not installed.
  Package pinentry-gtk2 which provides pinentry is to be removed.
  Package pinentry-curses which provides pinentry is not configured yet.

Removing pinentry-gtk2 (0.8.3-2) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.6.7.1-1) ...
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Processing triggers for hicolor-icon-theme (0.13-1) ...
Processing triggers for shared-mime-info (1.3-1) ...
Processing triggers for mime-support (3.56) ...
Processing triggers for desktop-file-utils (0.22-1) ...
Processing triggers for menu (2.1.46) ...
Processing triggers for doc-base (0.10.5) ...
Processing 1 removed doc-base file...
Registering documents with dwww...
Registering documents with scrollkeeper...
Processing triggers for fontconfig (2.11.0-5) ...
(Reading database ... 231386 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0_2.4.4-2_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0:amd64 (2.4.4-2) over (2.2.3-1) ...
Preparing to unpack .../libldb1_1%3a1.1.17-1_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking libldb1:amd64 (1:1.1.17-1) over (1:1.1.16-1) ...
Setting up pinentry-curses (0.8.3-2) ...
Setting up libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0:amd64 (2.4.4-2) ...
Setting up libldb1:amd64 (1:1.1.17-1) ...
Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.19-7) ...


Next will be pulseaudio* and policykit*.
timbgo
 
Posts: 265
Joined: 2013-04-14 12:17

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 00:34

Previous purge was of dbus*.

apt-get autoremove --purge pulseaudio*
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Package 'libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'gstreamer1.0-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-utils' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-x11' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'gstreamer0.10-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-esound-compat' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-gconf' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-zeroconf' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-bluetooth' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-jack' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'liquidsoap-plugin-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'osspd-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-raop' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-lirc' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'projectm-pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-bluetooth-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-gconf-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-x11-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-utils-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-jack-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-zeroconf-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-lirc-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-raop-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-esound-compat-dbg' is not installed, so not removed
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  acl* cups-common* dconf-gsettings-backend* dconf-service* enchant*
  fonts-droid* fonts-stix* gconf2-common* gimp-data* glib-networking*
  glib-networking-common* glib-networking-services* gsettings-desktop-schemas*
  gstreamer1.0-plugins-base* gstreamer1.0-plugins-good* gstreamer1.0-x*
  hunspell-en-us* liba52-0.7.4* libaa1* libaacplus2* libaacs0*
  libasn1-8-heimdal* libass4* libasyncns0* libatk1.0-0* libatk1.0-data*
  libatkmm-1.6-1* libavahi-common-data* libavahi-common3* libavc1394-0*
  libavcodec54* libavcodec55* libavfilter4* libavformat55* libavresample1*
  libavutil52* libbabl-0.1-0* libblas3* libbluray1* libbs2b0* libcaca0*
  libcairo-perl* libcairomm-1.0-1* libcanberra0* libcdio-cdda1*
  libcdio-paranoia1* libcdio13* libcdparanoia0* libcolord2* libcrystalhd3*
  libdc1394-22* libdca0* libdconf1* libdirac-decoder0* libdirac-encoder0*
  libdirectfb-1.2-9* libdv4* libdvdnav4* libdvdread4* libenca0*
  libenchant1c2a* libexif12* libfaac0* libfaad2* libfdk-aac0* libffi5*
  libfftw3-single3* libfile-copy-recursive-perl* libfm-data* libfm-gtk-data*
  libgd3* libgee2* libgegl-0.2-0* libgfortran3* libglib-perl*
  libglibmm-2.4-1c2a* libgnome-keyring-common* libgphoto2-2* libgphoto2-l10n*
  libgphoto2-port0* libgs9-common* libgsm1* libgssapi3-heimdal*
  libgstreamer-plugins-base1.0-0* libgstreamer1.0-0* libgtk-3-common*
  libgtk2.0-common* libgudev-1.0-0* libhcrypto4-heimdal* libhdb9-heimdal*
  libheimbase1-heimdal* libheimntlm0-heimdal* libhunspell-1.3-0*
  libhx509-5-heimdal* libiec61883-0* libieee1284-3* libijs-0.35* libiw30*
  libjack-jackd2-0* libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0* libjbig2dec0* libjpeg-progs*
  libjson-glib-1.0-0* libjson-glib-1.0-common* libkrb5-26-heimdal* liblapack3*
  libldb1* liblircclient0* libm17n-0* libmad0* libmenu-cache-bin*
  libmenu-cache3* libmng1* libmozjs17d* libmp3lame0* libmpeg2-4* libmpg123-0*
  libnspr4* libnss3* libntdb1* libopencore-amrnb0* libopencore-amrwb0*
  libopenjpeg2* libopenjpeg5* liborc-0.4-0* libotf0* libpango-perl*
  libpango1.0-0* libpangomm-1.4-1* libpolkit-agent-1-0* libpolkit-gobject-1-0*
  libpoppler-glib8* libpoppler37* libportaudio2* libpostproc52* libproxy1*
  libpython2.7* libraw1394-11* librest-0.7-0* libroken18-heimdal*
  libsane-extras* libsane-extras-common* libschroedinger-1.0-0* libsecret-1-0*
  libsecret-common* libshout3* libsndfile1* libsoup-gnome2.4-1* libsoup2.4-1*
  libspeex1* libspeexdsp1* libswresample0* libswscale2* libsystemd-id128-0*
  libsystemd-journal0* libsystemd-login0* libtag1-vanilla* libtag1c2a*
  libtalloc2* libtdb1* libtevent0* libtheora0* libts-0.0-0* libv4l-0*
  libv4lconvert0* libva1* libvdpau1* libvidstab1.0* libvisual-0.4-0*
  libvisual-0.4-plugins* libvo-aacenc0* libvo-amrwbenc0* libvorbisenc2*
  libvorbisfile3* libvorbisidec1* libvpx1* libvte-2.90-common* libvte-common*
  libwavpack1* libwbclient0* libwebkitgtk-3.0-common* libwebp4*
  libwebrtc-audio-processing-0* libwind0-heimdal* libwnck-common* libx264-140*
  libx264-142* libx265-13* libxkbcommon0* libxml-twig-perl*
  libxml-xpathengine-perl* libxres1* libxvidcore4* lxmenu-data* m17n-contrib*
  m17n-db* oxygen-icon-theme* poppler-data* python-cairo* python-gobject-2*
  python-numpy* python-talloc* tsconf* update-inetd* xscreensaver-data*
  yelp-xsl*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 206 to remove and 132 not upgraded.
After this operation, 320 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] (Reading database ... 231385 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing acl (2.2.52-1) ...
Removing cups-common (1.7.4-1) ...
Removing gstreamer1.0-plugins-good:amd64 (1.2.4-1) ...
Removing librest-0.7-0:amd64 (0.7.12-3) ...
Purging configuration files for librest-0.7-0:amd64 (0.7.12-3) ...
Removing libgtk-3-common (3.12.2-1) ...
Purging configuration files for libgtk-3-common (3.12.2-1) ...
Removing enchant (1.6.0-10) ...
Removing fonts-droid (1:4.3-3) ...
Purging configuration files for fonts-droid (1:4.3-3) ...
Removing fonts-stix (1.1.1-1) ...
Removing gconf2-common (3.2.6-2) ...
Purging configuration files for gconf2-common (3.2.6-2) ...
Removing gimp-data (2.8.10-1) ...
Purging configuration files for gimp-data (2.8.10-1) ...
Removing gstreamer1.0-plugins-base:amd64 (1.2.4-1) ...
Removing gstreamer1.0-x:amd64 (1.2.4-1) ...
Removing libenchant1c2a:amd64 (1.6.0-10) ...
Purging configuration files for libenchant1c2a:amd64 (1.6.0-10) ...
Removing hunspell-en-us (20070829-6) ...
Removing liba52-0.7.4 (0.7.4-17) ...
Purging configuration files for liba52-0.7.4 (0.7.4-17) ...
Removing libaa1:amd64 (1.4p5-42) ...
Purging configuration files for libaa1:amd64 (1.4p5-42) ...
Removing libavfilter4:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Purging configuration files for libavfilter4:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Removing libgegl-0.2-0:amd64 (1:0.2.0-dmo2) ...
Purging configuration files for libgegl-0.2-0:amd64 (1:0.2.0-dmo2) ...
Removing libavformat55:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Purging configuration files for libavformat55:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Removing libavcodec55:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Purging configuration files for libavcodec55:amd64 (10:2.2.2-dmo1) ...
Removing libavcodec54:amd64 (10:1.2.4-dmo4) ...
Purging configuration files for libavcodec54:amd64 (10:1.2.4-dmo4) ...
Removing libaacplus2:amd64 (2.0.2-dmo1) ...
Purging configuration files for libaacplus2:amd64 (2.0.2-dmo1) ...
Removing libaacs0:amd64 (0.7.1-1) ...
Purging configuration files for libaacs0:amd64 (0.7.1-1) ...
Removing libhdb9-heimdal:amd64 (1.6~rc2+dfsg-7) ...
Purging configuration files for libhdb9-heimdal:amd64 (1.6~rc2+dfsg-7) ...
Removing libgssapi3-heimdal:amd64 (1.6~rc2+dfsg-7) ...
Purging configuration files for libgssapi3-heimdal:amd64 (1.6~rc2+dfsg-7) ...
Removing libass4:amd64 (0.10.1-3) ...
Purging configuration files for libass4:amd64 (0.10.1-3) ...
Removing libasyncns0:amd64 (0.8-5) ...
Purging configuration files for libasyncns0:amd64 (0.8-5) ...
Removing libatkmm-1.6-1:amd64 (2.22.7-2) ...
Purging configuration files for libatkmm-1.6-1:amd64 (2.22.7-2) ...
Removing libatk1.0-0:amd64 (2.12.0-1) ...
Purging configuration files for libatk1.0-0:amd64 (2.12.0-1) ...
Removing libatk1.0-data (2.12.0-1) ...
Removing libavahi-common3:amd64 (0.6.31-4) ...
Purging configuration files for libavahi-common3:amd64 (0.6.31-4) ...
Removing libavahi-common-data:amd64 (0.6.31-4) ...
Removing libavc1394-0:amd64 (0.5.4-2) ...
Purging configuration files for libavc1394-0:amd64 (0.5.4-2) ...
Removing libavresample1:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Purging configuration files for libavresample1:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Removing libswscale2:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Purging configuration files for libswscale2:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Removing libswresample0:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Purging configuration files for libswresample0:amd64 (10:2.2.4-dmo3) ...
Removing libbabl-0.1-0:amd64 (0.1.10-1) ...
Purging configuration files for libbabl-0.1-0:amd64 (0.1.10-1) ...
Removing python-numpy (1:1.8.1-1+b1) ...
Removing liblapack3 (3.5.0-2) ...
Removing libblas3 (1.2.20110419-7) ...
Removing libbluray1:amd64 (2:0.6.0-dmo2) ...
Purging configuration files for libbluray1:amd64 (2:0.6.0-dmo2) ...
Removing libbs2b0 (3.1.0+dfsg-2) ...
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Removing libcaca0:amd64 (0.99.beta19-2) ...
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Removing libpango-perl (1.226-1) ...
Removing libcairo-perl (1.104-1) ...
Removing libpangomm-1.4-1:amd64 (2.34.0-1) ...
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Removing libcairomm-1.0-1 (1.10.0-1) ...
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Removing libcanberra0:amd64 (0.30-2) ...
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Removing libcdio-paranoia1 (0.83-4.1) ...
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Removing libcdio-cdda1 (0.83-4.1) ...
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Removing libcdio13 (0.83-4.1) ...
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Removing libcdparanoia0:amd64 (3.10.2+debian-11) ...
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Removing libcolord2:amd64 (1.2.1-1) ...
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Removing libcrystalhd3:amd64 (1:0.0~git20110715.fdd2f19-11) ...
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Removing libdirectfb-1.2-9:amd64 (1.2.10.0-5) ...
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Removing libgphoto2-2:amd64 (2.4.14-2.4) ...
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Removing libfaac0:amd64 (1:1.28-dmo3) ...
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Removing libfftw3-single3:amd64 (3.3.4-1) ...
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Removing libgnome-keyring-common (3.4.1-1) ...
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Removing libgs9-common (9.05~dfsg-8.1) ...
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Removing libspeex1:amd64 (1.2~rc1.1-1) ...
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Removing libsystemd-id128-0:amd64 (208-6) ...
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Removing libsystemd-journal0:amd64 (204-8) ...
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Removing libsystemd-login0:amd64 (204-8) ...
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Removing libtag1-vanilla:amd64 (1.9.1-2) ...
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Removing libvdpau1:amd64 (0.7-2) ...
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Removing libvidstab1.0 (2:0.98b-dmo1) ...
Purging configuration files for libvidstab1.0 (2:0.98b-dmo1) ...
Removing libvisual-0.4-plugins:amd64 (0.4.0.dfsg.1-7) ...
Removing libvisual-0.4-0:amd64 (0.4.0-5) ...
Purging configuration files for libvisual-0.4-0:amd64 (0.4.0-5) ...
Removing libvo-aacenc0:amd64 (0.1.3-1) ...
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Removing libvte-common (1:0.28.2-5) ...
Removing libwavpack1:amd64 (4.70.0-1) ...
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Removing libwebrtc-audio-processing-0:amd64 (0.1-2) ...
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Removing libwnck-common (2.30.7-1) ...
Removing libx264-140:amd64 (3:0.140.2377+git1ca7bb9-dmo3) ...
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dpkg: warning: while removing oxygen-icon-theme, directory '/usr/share/icons/oxygen' not empty so not removed
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apt-get autoremove --purge policykit*
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Package 'policykit-1-doc' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'razorqt-policykit-agent' is not installed, so not removed
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 132 not upgraded.
After this operation, 0 B of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] (Reading database ... 217281 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing policykit-1 (0.105-6) ...
Purging configuration files for policykit-1 (0.105-6) ...
Removing policykit-1-gnome (0.105-2) ...
Purging configuration files for policykit-1-gnome (0.105-2) ...


And I still have X11, in openbox.
I can startx as regular user, in one session (F7).
And as root user in another session (F8).
But most of the programs that I need can not be installed without dbus.
I'll show exactly what apt-get tells me.

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
timbgo
 
Posts: 265
Joined: 2013-04-14 12:17

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 00:49

apt-get install iceweasel
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 iceweasel : Depends: libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
             Depends: libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78) but it is not installable
             Depends: libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.24.0) but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

apt-get install wireshark
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 wireshark : Depends: libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.7.10) but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

apt-get install libgtk-3-0
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libgtk-3-0 : Depends: libatk-bridge2.0-0 (>= 2.5.3) but it is not going to be installed
              Depends: libcups2 (>= 1.6.0) but it is not going to be installed
              Recommends: libgtk-3-bin but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

apt-get install libatk-bridge2.0-0
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libatk-bridge2.0-0 : Depends: libatspi2.0-0 (>= 2.9.90) but it is not going to be installed
                      Depends: libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2) but it is not installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

apt-get install mplayer
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 mplayer : Depends: libpulse0 (>= 0.99.1) but it is not going to be installed
           Depends: libsdl1.2debian (>= 1.2.11) but it is not going to be installed
           Depends: libsmbclient (>= 2:4.0.3+dfsg1) but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

apt-get install ffmpeg
Code: Select all
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 ffmpeg : Depends: libavdevice55 (>= 10:2.2) but it is not going to be installed
          Depends: libsdl1.2debian (>= 1.2.11) but it is not going to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

And these are difficult dependencies.
Can they be somehow overcome? Tricked, like edbarx above suggested?
I remember I read on debian-devel, I think it was mirabilos (see the very first post of the other topic ("How to avoid stealth installation of systemd"), but he wrote that somewhere in those long discussions, can't now tell where, writing how there were people running Debian without dbus...
But how?

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
timbgo
 
Posts: 265
Joined: 2013-04-14 12:17

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby goulo » 2014-09-11 07:03

Yeah, giving up iceweasel would be a heavy price to pay to get rid of dbus! I too am curious if there is a solution to that. Thamks for reporting your explorations.
goulo
 
Posts: 47
Joined: 2012-01-19 09:52

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-11 07:19

timbgo wrote:And these are difficult dependencies.
Can they be somehow overcome? Tricked, like edbarx above suggested?

In principle, any dependency, whatever that may be, can be replaced by some other code providing a similar, which may not necessarily be an exact replica, code to the replaced code. Dependencies are either independent daemons, programs or libraries. In these cases, the replacement task is to:
a) first identify which imported functions are to be replaced or modified
b) write the replacement functions in a separate .c/.cpp and .h files
c) debug these functions to verify they behave as expected
d) recompile the source to use these functions
e) repackage the software to remove the unwanted dependency.

I know, this means, effectively becoming a 'maintainer'. At times like these, however, it looks like what is going to happen with those who want to customize the system the way they want it.

As the CLI collection of programs is well tested and effectively does many different tasks, I think, using CLI programs as backends can help reduce the complexity of some situations like the above. However, I have never tried it myself, but if contraints become such that this becomes a necessity, one never knows...
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
User avatar
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-11 08:40

On Jessie, regrettably, I still have some parts of the systemd collection installed. :( Removing them will result in unsatisfied dependencies and broken packages. This is what I have:
Code: Select all
~$ dpkg -l | grep systemd
ii  libsystemd-daemon0:amd64              208-8                             amd64        systemd utility library
rc  libsystemd-journal0:amd64             208-8                             amd64        systemd journal utility library
ii  libsystemd-login0:amd64               208-8                             amd64        systemd login utility library
rc  systemd                               208-8                             amd64        system and service manager
ii  systemd-shim                          7-1                               amd64        shim for systemd


The ii are installed packages. Removing them without providing the functions they export, is asking for crashes and system malfunction.

The functions these libraries export are listed below:
Code: Select all
~$ nm -D --defined-only /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd-daemon.so.0
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_DAEMON_31
0000000000001ba0 T sd_booted
00000000000011c0 T sd_is_fifo
0000000000001790 T sd_is_mq
0000000000001460 T sd_is_socket
0000000000001520 T sd_is_socket_inet
0000000000001640 T sd_is_socket_unix
00000000000012d0 T sd_is_special
0000000000001010 T sd_listen_fds
00000000000018d0 T sd_notify
0000000000001aa0 T sd_notifyf

~$ nm -D --defined-only /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd-login.so.0
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_186
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_198
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_201
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_202
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_203
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_205
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_207
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_31
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_38
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_LOGIN_43
00000000000035f0 T sd_get_machine_names
0000000000003400 T sd_get_seats
0000000000003410 T sd_get_sessions
0000000000003420 T sd_get_uids
0000000000003820 T sd_login_monitor_flush
0000000000003850 T sd_login_monitor_get_events
0000000000003840 T sd_login_monitor_get_fd
0000000000003860 T sd_login_monitor_get_timeout
0000000000003600 T sd_login_monitor_new
00000000000037f0 T sd_login_monitor_unref
00000000000026f0 T sd_pid_get_machine_name
0000000000002730 T sd_pid_get_owner_uid
00000000000024a0 T sd_pid_get_session
0000000000002710 T sd_pid_get_slice
00000000000026b0 T sd_pid_get_unit
00000000000026d0 T sd_pid_get_user_unit
00000000000033f0 T sd_seat_can_graphical
00000000000033d0 T sd_seat_can_multi_session
00000000000033e0 T sd_seat_can_tty
0000000000002f50 T sd_seat_get_active
00000000000030c0 T sd_seat_get_sessions
0000000000002f30 T sd_session_get_class
0000000000002f40 T sd_session_get_display
0000000000002cb0 T sd_session_get_seat
0000000000002f10 T sd_session_get_service
0000000000002b10 T sd_session_get_state
0000000000002e70 T sd_session_get_tty
0000000000002f20 T sd_session_get_type
0000000000002bf0 T sd_session_get_uid
0000000000002e80 T sd_session_get_vt
0000000000002a50 T sd_session_is_active
0000000000002a20 T sd_uid_get_seats
00000000000029f0 T sd_uid_get_sessions
0000000000002750 T sd_uid_get_state
0000000000002870 T sd_uid_is_on_seat
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
User avatar
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 08:53

goulo wrote:Yeah, giving up iceweasel would be a heavy price to pay to get rid of dbus! I too am curious if there is a solution to that. Thamks for reporting your explorations.

You are most welcome!
edbarx wrote:
timbgo wrote:And these are difficult dependencies.
...[snip]...

In principle, any dependency, whatever that may be, can be replaced by some other code
...[snip]...
I know, this means, effectively becoming a 'maintainer'.
...[snip]...

Which I could not find time for. That would be months of dedicated work.
I have programmed, very clumsily, in Bash:
http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/gnu/Flowstamp/
As the CLI collection of programs is well tested and effectively does many different tasks, I think, using CLI programs as backends can help reduce the complexity of some situations like the above. However, I have never tried it myself, but if contraints become such that this becomes a necessity, one never knows...

Command Line Interface. But I don't get it how it applies here?
Miro
timbgo
 
Posts: 265
Joined: 2013-04-14 12:17

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-11 09:19

timbgo wrote:Command Line Interface. But I don't get it how it applies here?

If a fraction of those functions can be delegated to CLI programs, it should be possible to use those programs as backends. This is done in many situations, where a graphical frontend like synaptic, uses CLI backends.

Added Later:
Since in C/C++ main() is a function, I am suspecting, using a CLI backend is a matter of importing that function, essentially, making the backend program behave like a library. What I know for sure is that the OS calls main() to run a program.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
User avatar
edbarx
 
Posts: 5398
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 09:51

edbarx wrote:
timbgo wrote:Command Line Interface. But I don't get it how it applies here?

If a fraction of those functions can be delegated to CLI programs, it should be possible to use those programs as backends. This is done in many situations, where a graphical frontend like synaptic, uses CLI backends.

Added Later:
Since in C/C++ main() is a function, I am suspecting, using a CLI backend is a matter of importing that function, essentially, making the backend program behave like a library. What I know for sure is that the OS calls main() to run a program.

A thorough reply, that makes me use apply to understand the meaning. To some extent. But can't go into it. Would, but can not program fulltime, only fraction of time in life.

Allow me to go back to quoting what you previously said, to make a particular point.

First just the difference btwn. my systemd weed and exbarx's:
edbarx wrote:On Jessie, regrettably, I still have some parts of the systemd collection installed. :( Removing them will result in unsatisfied dependencies and broken packages. This is what I have:
Code: Select all
~$ dpkg -l | grep systemd
ii  libsystemd-daemon0:amd64
...snip...

Mine is, to not clutter, just see above, and, more or less,instead of:
Code: Select all
ii  systemd-shim

I have this:
Code: Select all
ii  systemd-128-0

Now I want to get to a particular point.
And, while I have only general and not hands-on understanding of programming for GNU/Linux, I would say that the lines that I leave below in the quote
edbarx wrote:...snip...
The functions these libraries export are listed below:
Code: Select all
~$ nm -D --defined-only /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd-daemon.so.0
0000000000000000 A LIBSYSTEMD_DAEMON_31
...snip...
0000000000001460 T sd_is_socket
0000000000001520 T sd_is_socket_inet
0000000000001640 T sd_is_socket_unix
...snip...
~$ nm -D --defined-only /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd-login.so.0
...snip...
00000000000033f0 T sd_seat_can_graphical
00000000000033d0 T sd_seat_can_multi_session
00000000000033e0 T sd_seat_can_tty
0000000000002f50 T sd_seat_get_active
00000000000030c0 T sd_seat_get_sessions
...snip...
0000000000002a20 T sd_uid_get_seats
00000000000029f0 T sd_uid_get_sessions
0000000000002750 T sd_uid_get_state
0000000000002870 T sd_uid_is_on_seat

is those function that call for considering of my theory that I expressed here:
How can systemd be uninstalled?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=117276&p=552864#p552769
the short point:
myself wrote:always multiseat although most of the time single user computers

and further in that paragraph of mine:
myself wrote:like selling an apartment to a guy
..but...
myself wrote:we can't really give you the keys to those rooms

But for the full thought, theory if you will, one needs to read there.
Allow me to tell you that on Gentoo, quite a number of people decided to go without those multiseat[s].
Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats)
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-9 ... ight-.html
But we have a few developers there that openly care for the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States (such legislature is generally in all democratic constitutins, for the less initiated in legalese, it's your right to privacy, secrecy, in your communications). Aarghh, this calls for a quote, and I can only promise I will try to be back to insert it here... wait...
Nope, haven't found the talk, but it's blueness, a Council Member https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Blueness
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
Last edited by timbgo on 2014-09-11 10:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-11 10:16

I am examining the code for synaptic knowing it uses backends. However, I am still unsuccessful finding a reference where it uses either dpkg or apt to do its dirty work. :?

To timbgo:
What is 'interesting' (suspicious) about those functions you listed? With the source available, I can attempt to filter what they do, but I need to know precisely what is to be filtered. For instance, if we deem function get_multiple_seats is questionable and we know why it is questionable, we can modify its returned data.
Last edited by edbarx on 2014-09-11 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-11 10:39

edbarx wrote:I am examining the code for synaptic knowing it uses backends. However, I am still unsuccessful finding a reference where it uses either dpkg or apt to do its dirty work. :?

Thumbs up!
And I need to try and call Wookey and mirabilos to the rescue!
No one seems to have heeded my cries for help and tried to send a notice to them, and I'll try and resend what I already sent, as explained:

(this same topic)
more complete report here:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484

but initial report of sending here:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770#p550450

That might entail very demanding dedication and analysis before and after, because the documenting of the non-dismissable
statement that my provider was, and how they were, blocking my plain one To: address mail as spam, cost me some two or three days of dedicated work.

I will do that in Gentoo, however. No dbus, no systemd there whatsoever, and neither policykit, pulseaudio, actually no poetteringware whatsoever, thanks to people like blueness that I mentioned in my first previous post. Blueness is the main developer behind:

https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/
(read there, my non-expert explanation. how that isolates and replaces systemd)

( a note due here for the Debianers only skimming this topic without time for more thorough reading: lots of systemd/dbus/*kits/pulseadio users there too, Gentoo just offers the option to go without those, and it's not necessarily easy attaining that freedom there either!)

I might be off longer period now. Don't know. My back, figuratively, is already broken from all the work. But I enjoy Debian these days as never before!

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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