The future with Systemd

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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby sjukfan » 2014-09-08 14:12

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTc4MjQ

This summer a student developer began work on DBus daemons that accept systemd calls and emulated their behavior with their own native calls, in order to make drop-in replacements for BSD platforms where systemd is not supported and the upstream systemd developers have no plans of supporting.

This work revolved around writing effective BSD-compatible replacements for systemd-hostnamed, systemd-localed, systemd-timedated, and systemd-logind. While this work was spawned in the systemd camp, it's designed to run on Unix-like systems where systemd isn't supported (everything but Linux) in order to support the increasing number of end-user software packages depending upon systemd functionality, like GNOME. This Google Summer of Code work was done by student developer Ian Sutton with oversight from mentors Antoine Jacoutot and Landry Breuil.

While it's not clear right now how far these systemd utility replacements made it along, the code as of the end of the summer is hosted via the Google Melange site within the code sample section (unfortunately am not able to find any other blog posts or Git repositories for the work; will update if I receive any additional information). Hopefully this work will be picked up and continued by others not wishing to use/support systemd but still looking for compatibility with other systemd-dependent software.


Fear not - the layer is designed to be simple to port to other systems. Once it gains more functionality I'm sure a Linux port will be created.


tl;dr OpenBSD compatibility layer to support systemd calls.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby keithpeter » 2014-09-08 14:38

sjukfan wrote:tl;dr OpenBSD compatibility layer to support systemd calls.

Nice find, thanks.

The *BSD side of the fence have to do *something* if they want a fully integrated desktop of the kind people have come to expect. I don't think a window manager on top of X with command line mounting/unmounting of drives is going to cut it. Not to mention wifi without network-manager. See sig for the gory details.

This strategy is a lot easier than (say) a total fork of one of the larger DEs like KDE with a new back end. Binary compatibility implies that what they come up with might be importable to the Linux yurt camp.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-08 14:48

The good news is that there are various strategies to attack the problem. This shows that various solutions will crop up and the best one will prevail.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby mardybear » 2014-09-08 15:36

Most open-source operating systems which are strictly opposed to adopting systemd are not Linux distributions, but rather flavours of BSD. The systemd project intentionally targets Linux exclusively and this makes it highly unlikely systemd will be ported to FreeBSD, PC-BSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD. In fact, the OpenBSD Foundation began work on software which will allow the operating system to avoid running systemd, but will enable OpenBSD to run applications which depend on systemd. However, since the original poster mentioned running the Debian distribution, I have a potential solution that might avoid any big changes. The Debian project maintains an official port that marries the FreeBSD kernel with GNU libraries and Debian's package manager. I have run this branch of Debian in the past in test environments and if you can get it running on your hardware it will offer the Debian experience as far as the installer and package managing are concerned and the kFreeBSD port of Debian is unlikely to adopt systemd.

From distrowatch:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20140908#qa

Debian GNU/kFreeBSD link:
http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

My weekend freetime was spent using freeBSD - really not that much different from Debian.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby keithpeter » 2014-09-10 17:17

mardybear wrote:My weekend freetime was spent using freeBSD - really not that much different from Debian.

Oddly enough, just trying OpenBSD on my test laptop. OpenBSD has suspend that works on my hardware. Same language, different dialect. Very educational.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby mardybear » 2014-09-11 02:26

Same language, different dialect. Very educational.

Exactly but i couldn't word it as eloquently :) Feels the same but different...all at the same time. Some Linux commands work the same in BSD, some not. Very good experience. Glad i'm not yet too Linux-set-in-my-ways to keep exploring.

PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation. From my relatively brief experience, Debian has always been about providing choices. For example, if a new desktop environment becomes available it's added to the repository and does not displace another DE. When 64-bit systems came along, 32-bit systems were still supported. So when another init system became available (systemd), i would expect Debian to add this as an option, offering both sysinitv and systemd variants along with 32-bit and 64-bit. Especially since the move to systemd is so controversial and it has not yet proven itself to be a significant improvement or long term stable. Anyway...wasted enough time on it...just wanted to explain. Thanks.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby keithpeter » 2014-09-14 09:34

mardybear wrote:PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation.

Rant? What rant? If you want rants, try the Debian-devel or Debian-user mailing lists! Plenty there :lol:

I thought 'mor' gave the best answer to that post as mor often does. My concern is the language being used and the way that makes it harder to focus on the technical issues (modularity, attack surface for exploits, difficulty or ease for upstream projects to remain init-agnostic &c, mudballing of subsystems - not just systemd by any means on that one).
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby timbgo » 2014-09-16 05:50

keithpeter wrote:
mardybear wrote:PS. Sorry about the rant way earlier in this thread somewhere. Yes i understand the free software concept, my frustration was directed towards Debian's management of the systemd situation.

Rant? What rant? If you want rants, try the Debian-devel or Debian-user mailing lists! Plenty there :lol:

No, those are cries for reason, not rants, as far as the majority of those who want to, say, as the title says:
Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00308.html
I thought 'mor' gave the best answer to that post as mor often does.

No. Technically speaking, yes those are GNU. But in reality, no.
My concern is the language being used and the way that makes it harder to focus on the technical issues (modularity, attack surface for exploits, difficulty or ease for upstream projects to remain init-agnostic &c, mudballing of subsystems - not just systemd by any means on that one).

The musl dev's Rich Felker's concerns. Let's wait for anyone to plausibly rebuff those. Will be: never.
But I'm late to (try to) write on these topics, because I have fallen depressed. I'm not joking. This line:
Code: Select all
Built-in support for GnuTLS, GTK+ 3, ImageMagick, SELinux, and Libxml2.

on Richard Stallman's Emacs site:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
(take notice of the SELinux there) is what ended my trust in Richard.
I saw that line thanks to the discussion on:
Julian Assange: Debian Is Owned By The NSA
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04 ... ment-33217
where you can read that and even about suspicion, legitimate, as far as I get it, on GNU Hurd.
I won't call this OS that I put my hopes in, from now on GNU/Linux anymore. I'll try and call it SchLinux, by the Schmoogle the NSA's best friend Google that our dear leader Torvalds is so cheerfully hobnobbing with.

I have to recover from my broken dreams.
I would like not to belive that RMS would support SELinux, but it's there.

And who can deny that "Google and Red Hat pay his travel expenses" from:
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04 ... ment-33251
IgnorantGuru wrote:Last I spoke with RMS, he was still deeply in love with GNOME and Red Hat, even though I clearly explained the GNOME3 fiasco – I get the impression he’s a fraud (and coming from MIT, that’s easy to believe – Recruitment University).

But no! IgnorantGuru, thanks for your efforts, if you'll ever (later, you've been taking a break for some months now) be reading this. He was not a fraud. He started honestly!
The whole GNU is merely there to ‘stall’ evolution of free tools – I’m sure they get a laugh out of his name. I wouldn’t look for help there – Google and Red Hat pay his travel expenses.


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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby sjukfan » 2014-09-21 16:20

uselessd, a fork of systemd 208.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
uselessd -- what it says on the tin, plus a complementary kitchen sink and flat tire
So, what is it?

uselessd (the useless daemon, or the daemon that uses less... depending on your viewpoint) is a project which aims to reduce systemd to a base initd, process supervisor and transactional dependency system, while minimizing intrusiveness and isolationism. Basically, it’s systemd with the superfluous stuff cut out, a (relatively) coherent idea of what it wants to be, support for non-glibc platforms and an approach that aims to minimize complicated design.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby golinux » 2014-09-22 16:46

Excellent analysis of the systemd affair from the debian-user list. I'm having a hard time keeping up with the number of systemd-related posts. This is a good thing. The rebellion is growing . . .
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby edbarx » 2014-09-22 17:03

I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby golinux » 2014-09-22 18:54

edbarx wrote:I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.

I have only been on IRC a few times using xchat. I checked the preferences and there is a font setting.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby Hallvor » 2014-09-24 09:16

edbarx wrote:I contacted the uselessd team to ask them whether they accept help from me in the fork. They said they use IRC. Does anyone know what I should install to have an IRC client up and running? If the interface is a TUI it has to support bigger than normal fonts. My eyesight is starting to control me.


I have been on IRC since the mid 90s. There are many clients to choose from. In addition to the ones mentioned in the text, you can also set up IRC in Pidgin. I think most clients have options to enlarge fonts.
http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20090 ... 7/IRC.html

Make sure you try to join the channel on the correct network, since you can't necessarily see channels and users from other networks: http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/
Most Debian channels are on the OFTC network. https://wiki.debian.org/IRC
After you have connected to a network, type /join #debian
or whatever the channel name is. type /list
to list all channels on the network.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby koanhead » 2014-09-24 21:44

I'm currently using Pidgin, and there's no way within the application to specify display fonts. On the Pidgin website there's this: https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Using% ... roundcolor

I have tested this method (in Testing, no DE) and it works.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby buntunub » 2014-09-26 03:39

Just watched this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWux-PA6JCU

The really interesting part starts at time 35, where Poetering discusses all the reasons for why Debian should NOT use Systemd. That's right! Poetering actually spelled out all the reasons why Systemd should NOT be default in Debian TO the Debian DDs at the Debconf. He actually does a really good job of that too by directly addressing the prime concerns anyone in Debian should have issues with, such as rapid development pace, incompatibility with SysV (5% at that time and growing), only works on Linux and will NOT work on BSD, and last but certainly not the least, they "make decisions" on their own on the direction Systemd will go. While this sounds innocuous enough, we are talking about a major monolithic init system here. Any decision they make will have dramatic impacts on Debian.

Lots of salesmanship going on there. Looks like it worked for Poetering. I do find the ideas behind Systemd to be interesting. As an init system, and only as a basic init system, it could be an interesting alternative to SysV. However, there is not one thing that I heard from that presentation that gives a compelling reason to break from SysV. Did I miss something?
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