The future with Systemd

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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby millpond » 2015-09-20 18:49

tomazzi wrote:Debian was sold - that's the simplest explanation. Debian is dead - and this is a concequence. I'm working hard to introduce a non-RedHat systemd, that's my target. Hard to achieve. Not very important - existing sysV solution is far more stable - but I need to fight with a crappy solutions which were adopted by the Debian..., but that's a long story...


I've got Wheezy copied, and Jessie mirrored, and I'm pretty much going off the Debian grid.

I'm migrating my Jessie development system ovr to a newer machine with LMDE Betsy, and now basically need the instructions to convert Betsy (mostly without systemd already) over to Devuan.

After that I will want to 'update' the Devuan install to match the packages installed already in my Jessie install.
Naturally through the filtered Devuan dpkg utils, and using my local Jessie repo.

LMDE->Devuan->Jessie(filtered)
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby runfrodorun » 2015-09-20 20:34

Binary distribution != Source distribution, as stated.

Why do debian packages with an optional dependency to systemd libraries need to be linked? Because if they aren't, then there would need to be multiple versions of the binary to be distributed that are compiled with and without those use flags. Since debian has usually fallen on the side of make as much available as possible, this is what you're going to be stuck with, and it will probably not go away.

With source distributions like gentoo on the other hand, adjusting the use flags and compiling on a per-system basis you don't have to have that binary dependency on a per-system basis.

I think anybody seeking that level of customization would be smart to consider source distributions, because it's either that or have millions of derivative binary distributions that have x but not y, or have neither x nor y, and so on and so fourth.

Personally, even with how much I hate systemd, I've stuck with debian, using the old system V init. It's good enough for me and it just works. Is it a bitch for developers to maintain support for it? Yes. But as long as they're willing to spend their time supporting it, it doesn't make a darn difference to me either way, until packages start breaking some day. Then I'll probably jump ship and get gentoo running with good ol' openRC.

Binary distributions, even if there isn't much link freedom, are very convenient for everyday use. And even then.... if you have some time on your hands there is nothing stopping you from making your own binary images for the packages that do have the bad systemd dependencies, and working your way back up the tree from there.

-RJ
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby sckyless » 2015-09-22 16:19

Torvalds also has nothing against systemd (and his comments seem to indicate he likes it), and he likes Red Hat's vision of the future for Linux. So they may not be as different as some believe. Except for the obvious of course. Unlike Poettering, Torvalds knows what he is doing when it comes to writing code.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby golinux » 2015-09-22 17:11

sckyless wrote:Torvalds also has nothing against systemd (and his comments seem to indicate he likes it), and he likes Red Hat's vision of the future for Linux. So they may not be as different as some believe. Except for the obvious of course. Unlike Poettering, Torvalds knows what he is doing when it comes to writing code.
I've seen almost an exact copy of this post before. I suspect a sock puppet. As to the veracity of the OPs statement . . . AFAIK, GKH is the one leading the systemd charge.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby dasein » 2015-09-22 17:51

sckyless wrote:Torvalds also has nothing against systemd (and his comments seem to indicate he likes it)

No. He has clearly and unequivocally stated that he just doesn't care, which is (a) entirely predictable and (b) not an endorsement (except to the systemd fanbois, who routinely rely on WMWINTTM word-mangling).

golinux wrote:I suspect a sock puppet.

Ya think?? :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116860&start=255#p592803
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-09-22 18:00

Usually when people first join the forum, it is because they have some questions about Debian, or problems, sometimes, also it turns out they have experience and solutions ,so they register and then post answers to the questions,... but yea, it is pretty obvious when a "newmember" jumps right into the same topic/threads, that the X-sock puppet was trolling,...no to smart, very much "bot like" behavior.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby spacex » 2015-09-22 22:13

GarryRicketson wrote:Usually when people first join the forum, it is because they have some questions about Debian, or problems, sometimes, also it turns out they have experience and solutions ,so they register and then post answers to the questions,... but yea, it is pretty obvious when a "newmember" jumps right into the same topic/threads, that the X-sock puppet was trolling,...no to smart, very much "bot like" behavior.



Oh shit. In that case, it applies to me too. I didn't join this community to get help or because I had questions. I'm passed that point. Perhaps I would need help with Gentoo or FreeBSD. But not Debian. I'm sure there is much that I do not know, but I know everything that I need to know for my purpose. So I'm mainly here for the entertainment. And of course, to watch what other Debian users are up to. Common curiosity. But that's mainly it.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby Randicus » 2015-09-22 23:17

golinux wrote:I've seen almost an exact copy of this post before. I suspect a sock puppet.
More likely a spammer. That is something I posted, probably in the recent thread about Stallman.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby fireExit » 2015-09-22 23:42

Randicus wrote:
golinux wrote:I've seen almost an exact copy of this post before. I suspect a sock puppet.
More likely a spammer. That is something I posted, probably in the recent thread about Stallman.

2/3 right (just can't find one post :lol: )
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116860&p=591069#p591069
Randicus wrote:But then Torvalds also has nothing against systemd (and his comments seem to indicate he likes it), and he likes Red Hat's vision of the future for Linux. So they may not be as different as some believe. Except for the obvious of course. Unlike Poettering, Torvalds knows what he is doing when it comes to writing code.


viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116860&p=593783#p593783
sckyless wrote:Torvalds also has nothing against systemd (and his comments seem to indicate he likes it), and he likes Red Hat's vision of the future for Linux. So they may not be as different as some believe. Except for the obvious of course. Unlike Poettering, Torvalds knows what he is doing when it comes to writing code.


viewtopic.php?f=20&t=104042&p=548365#p548278
sammy66 wrote:I have plenty of old hardware of all kinds sitting stored, unused. I also keep several rather long-in-the-tooth systems running various flavors of Linux as testing and storage platforms. But the reason the rest of the stuff is taking up space and gathering dust is because it is just basically obsolete. I don't wish to burden anyone with the frustration that would surely ensue attempting to utilize my old junk.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=104042&p=593781#p593781
sckyless wrote:I have plenty of old hardware of all kinds sitting stored, unused. I also keep several rather long-in-the-tooth systems running various flavors of Linux as testing and storage platforms. But the reason the rest of the stuff is taking up space and gathering dust is because it is just basically obsolete. I don't wish to burden anyone with the frustration that would surely ensue attempting to utilize my old junk.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-09-23 02:01

@spacex
"Usually" is not the same as, "always" There are always exceptions, and it is a rather entertaining forum,..Any way, there is no set rule as to what reason someone has for joining the forum.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2015-09-23 03:30

Yep - it is banned.
I left the posts in place as context, since there have been responses after.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby Randicus » 2015-09-23 04:07

GarryRicketson wrote:Any way, there is no set rule as to what reason someone has for joining the forum.

No, but some reasons are better than others. Logically, the primary reason for joining a forum would be having an interest in the content. Examples of foolish reasons would be boredom and trolling. Staying on a forum dedicated to an interest one no longer has can be foolish or reasonable, depending on the reason. Wanting to continue interacting with a group of people one has interacted with for years would be reasonable. Remaining to troll the board would not be.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-09-24 19:30

dasein wrote:No. He has clearly and unequivocally stated that he just doesn't care, which is (a) entirely predictable and (b) not an endorsement (except to the systemd fanbois, who routinely rely on WMWINTTM word-mangling).


Linus saying he doesn't care means he considers the matter unimportant. The words speak for themselves. Pro-systemd, contra-systemd, systemd-agnostic. It's not important. It's not an endorsement for systemd but it's also not an anti-systemd endorsement. What it is is a big clue that he thinks the huge emotional investment (rather than a more useful coding investment) in opposing systemd is a huge waste of this precious finite thing we call life. Me I don't care about systemd. I do care about Debian.

PS. @Dasein: By using the word fanboi you invalidate your own argument by default.
Last edited by somebodyelse on 2015-09-24 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-09-24 19:37

And I still don't see why Debian would be dead when it has broken none of its promises.

This "Debian has been sold", "Debian is dead" talk. Where are the facts? All I see is: Linus made a Unix, called it Linux. Ian made Debian, a form of Linux, therefore a form of Unix. Lennart made substantial changes to key programs that we feel (feel, not know or think on the basis of, purely emotional) make Linux no longer Unix. Debian has implemented these changes and is therefore (by our feelings) no longer Unix. Therefore Debian has sold out, even though it never promised to be a classic system V unix and all its actual promises are public.

This is craziness and you're killing (or trying to kill) all the genuinely important things in Debian for the sake of system architecture decisions.

The person who originally made Linux according to a Unix spec (Linus Torvalds) does not consider systemd to be an issue;
The person who wrote the unix(POSIX) spec (Richard Stallman) does not consider systemd an issue.

These people are not gods and their views are not the only important ones. But their huge role in the very thing you think you're trying to defend is undisputed.

Anyway, I popped in to say hi. I've actually left free operating systems in disgust and I now saw my legs off twice a day for kicks, which is still more fun than the systemd moan/debate. Really, it's not that important. Let it be a lesson for the future that you need to proactively build the systems you want rather than wait for Red Hat to build them for you.
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Re: The future with Systemd

Postby Danielsan » 2015-09-25 20:26

FYI: https://lwn.net/Articles/657345/

Anyway another sponsorship for systemd which make me feel this people even less credible.
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