G'day, MATE!

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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby harrycaul » 2014-10-14 20:12

I put CentOS on a computer for my mom.
Gnome 3 = New Coke
Gnome Classic = Classic Coke
Gnome 2 = original Coca-Cola

I guess KDE is Pepsi then.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby keithpeter » 2014-10-14 21:58

RU55EL wrote:But, I can't help wondering if there is a fundamental software problem with Gnome, considering how much it seems to be despised here.

Just for the sake of argument, suppose there are three categories of end user for desktop/laptop graphical interfaces...

Type 1: Casual computer users. Web, photos, music player, videos, occasional use of an office package application to produce a simple product possibly e-mail offline if not using a Web mail system. Social sites such as FB/G+ &c Mostly mouse. Basically collections of 'stuff' and simple one application tasks. Printing, wifi, multimedia have to 'just work' for these people. Type 1 users are used to diverse interfaces now as a result of iPad and Windows 8. I suspect Gnome devs tend to focus on Type 1 use cases.

Type 2: Intensive users of a *desktop* system; video editing, sound production or advanced graphics production, creating stuff using a wide range of *desktop* software; highly integrated use of an Office suite and email offline client including calendering. Mouse plus keyboard shortcuts within packages. In Windows based company offices, type 2 users would include 'that guy' in the corner with the three monitors who runs huge Excel spreadsheets. ('that guy' is actually a lady in my office but you know the ones).

Type 3: Developer/sysadmin: Terminals and a Web browser with a command line programming environment *underneath* the desktop. Keyboard orientation.

Type 1 and Type 3 have no particular problems with Gnome, although the Type 3 people may be opinionated and may not like subtle aspects such as alt-Tab alt-` behaviour or the organisation of virtual workspaces. Type 3 likely to use a keyboard centric possibly tiled window manager on X and not bother with much else and so not figure in complaints.

It is the Type 2 people who may have *real* problems with Gnome in my experience because of the way it changed the workflow and logic of window grouping and multi-application working. For these people, Gnome looks like bad design because their use cases were not at the centre of the project. KDE looks better *to me* as a type 2 ish kind of user because I actually rather like the semantic desktop. Others might not.

Any good?
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby RU55EL » 2014-10-14 22:47

keithpeter wrote:Any good?


Yes!

Thank you keithpeter for taking the time to post a clear explanation.

I'm not exactly sure where I fall in the categories defined in your post, but I'm definitely a computer enthusiast. I tend to use a number of operating systems, windows and linux, and find Debian stable / Gnome 3 to be an excellent operating system and desktop environment.

So, if anything the "problem" is between my ears and not necessarily with Gnome3.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby Arthos » 2015-10-19 22:29

Do I have good hardware or have I just been incredibly lucky somehow?

Jessie 8.2 Stable w/gnome3 on a Lenovo x200 128GB SSD and 8GB ram Intel Core 2 Duo P8600
FTP Server with an AMD 2650 APU with jessie 8.2 stable and gnome3 4gb ram

Its hardly a core i7 with a GTX 980 and 16GB ram I use but I have tried;

    KDE on 7.8 wheezy
    Gnome3 & classic one time
    Cinnamon on LMDE
    Openbox

Only ever used the FTP server with gnome3 its a new addition to my collection :)

Not once have I ever thought my hardware couldn't support it or was lagging or slow. Do we still say 'your hardware might not support it' for the benefit of people still using these?

Image

I'd actually like to try that with Jessie and and Xfce or something.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby spacex » 2015-10-19 23:47

Caitlin wrote:This is not a question, it's a comment.

Gnome 3 stinks. I hated it just from the descriptions I read long ago. Finally I had to upgrade to Wheezy and Gnome 3 came with it. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was, it was much worse!

The strongest statement I can make regarding the "new and improved Gnome" is just not to use it. And I'm not the only one.

My first order of business was to replace it. Finally, I discovered MATE. I was so happy I couldn't help shouting "G'day, MATE!"

May the Gnome 3 team rot forever in the lowest levels of hell.

Caitlin


I couldn't agree more. Gnome 3 is quite possibly the worst DE I've ever tried. Total Garbage. There is no other way to describe it. I share your wishes for Gnome. May it rot in hell. Also, Debian would become much more free, if it liberates itself from this evil. There isn't a single positive thing that Gnome brings to the table. It's all bad.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby spacex » 2015-10-20 00:01

keithpeter wrote: KDE looks better *to me* as a type 2 ish kind of user because I actually rather like the semantic desktop. Others might not.

I agree with almost everything you are saying, but just because someone is type 2, it doesn't mean that they don't reflect over the usage of resources, and KDE's problem is that many of the default apps in KDE are much heavier than they need to be. If KDE went a little lighter, it would get a lot more users. But that opinion may be colored by the fact that I'm a cross between type 2 and 3. Even though I also do type 1 now and then. I want a KDE light, that would be the perfect compromise for me :)

Hmm, perhaps I should make it. Well, first step is to try it again. It's been a few years since the last visit. :)
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby spacex » 2015-10-20 00:19

Arthos wrote:Do I have good hardware or have I just been incredibly lucky somehow?

Jessie 8.2 Stable w/gnome3 on a Lenovo x200 128GB SSD and 8GB ram Intel Core 2 Duo P8600


Yes, this is good hardware in linux terms. 8 GB RAM is overkill for anything linux. But when you get below 2 GB RAM, then it really starts to matter, and then you see the difference. With your hardware, anything should be fast unless it's badly written or configured.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby Arthos » 2015-10-20 03:48

spacex wrote:
Arthos wrote:Do I have good hardware or have I just been incredibly lucky somehow?

Jessie 8.2 Stable w/gnome3 on a Lenovo x200 128GB SSD and 8GB ram Intel Core 2 Duo P8600


Yes, this is good hardware in linux terms. 8 GB RAM is overkill for anything linux. But when you get below 2 GB RAM, then it really starts to matter, and then you see the difference. With your hardware, anything should be fast unless it's badly written or configured.


Again that is an issue that the user should consider, if your hardware is bad and you know it is why bother putting these other DE's on there that seemingly you know are bloated. Putting KDE/Gnome3 on a 1GB ram netbook with an intel atom CPU is a little like trying to tow an 18 wheeler with a '63 Mini Cooper and then blaming the 18 wheeler for being 'heavy' by that logic.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2015-10-20 13:06

A lot of people became GNU/Linux users just because Windows XP wasn't supported anymore and they couldn't spare 500 or more dollars/euros/whatever just to buy a new PC. Also, many people in developing countries have basic needs that come first, example: food, water, roof over their head.

OTOH, there are people that are buying new computer every few years. We call them gamers. They waste hundreds of $ just to be able to play SNSG (Shiny new shitty games). Microsoft is not helping either. Newer OS's require gigabytes of RAM just to RUN normally. Add few apps in the background, bloated Web Browser with Java+Flash/HTML5, not to mention Photoshop and you need at least 4 GB RAM, dual-core CPU, decent graphics card and some swap. That's without playing SNSG.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby Arthos » 2015-10-20 15:52

Wheelerof4te wrote:A lot of people became GNU/Linux users just because Windows XP wasn't supported anymore and they couldn't spare 500 or more dollars/euros/whatever just to buy a new PC. Also, many people in developing countries have basic needs that come first, example: food, water, roof over their head.

OTOH, there are people that are buying new computer every few years. We call them gamers. They waste hundreds of $ just to be able to play SNSG (Shiny new shitty games). Microsoft is not helping either. Newer OS's require gigabytes of RAM just to RUN normally. Add few apps in the background, bloated Web Browser with Java+Flash/HTML5, not to mention Photoshop and you need at least 4 GB RAM, dual-core CPU, decent graphics card and some swap. That's without playing SNSG.

Was XP ever supported ? :P It was notoriously buggy and virus prone. A fantastic era to have a computer repair service.

You do know its generally cheaper to build a PC than buy a new one right? Your post makes it seem like every PC gamer goes and buys alienware crap.

Even gamers comprehend the fact about how Crysis 3 will not play well on insufficient hardware.

But how many gamers cry to Crytek and EA about it?

Yet the majority of these Desktop Environment posts (anywhere...no exceptions) there is a staggeringly high number of people who report all the issues of running on terrible hardware and blaming developers.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby spacex » 2015-10-20 23:19

Arthos wrote:Again that is an issue that the user should consider, if your hardware is bad and you know it is why bother putting these other DE's on there that seemingly you know are bloated. Putting KDE/Gnome3 on a 1GB ram netbook with an intel atom CPU is a little like trying to tow an 18 wheeler with a '63 Mini Cooper and then blaming the 18 wheeler for being 'heavy' by that logic.


The problem is that many users are unskilled and going for whatever is the default in Debian, and then they get stuck with Gnome3 on a low-spec netbook.
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby マーズ maazu » 2015-10-20 23:40

Good day! My notebook HP Pavilion 15 with 16 Gbyte RAM and running Jessie 8.1 using KDE. :D
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Re: G'day, MATE!

Postby spacex » 2015-10-21 00:42

マーズ maazu wrote:Good day! My notebook HP Pavilion 15 with 16 Gbyte RAM and running Jessie 8.1 using KDE. :D


Just installed KDE. Been a few years since the last time I tried it. But boy do I have issues with it. First, I'm affected by this bug:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297020

Only with a difference. To me it's not only a annoying message, launching kate with sudo fails with that message, and I can't seem to find a fix anywhere, and that bug is old as hell, without ever being done anything with... But that's just one minor thing... The worst part is the noice, it's the only DE and install I've ever tried where my fan runs constantly. Even in idle, as cpu-usage is above 60%, as opposed to 1% which I'm used to. I have just installed it, so I haven't gotten around to try and fix stuff yet, but boy, it surely made a very bad first impression. It looks better than Gnome, but performs way worse...

Well well, time will tell if I get it to behave better. If not, then KDE is blacklisted for at least 5 years before I try it again.
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