What is Linux becoming?

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What is Linux becoming?

Postby golinux » 2014-10-22 21:22

Remember the free edX course that was offered by the Linux Foundation at the end of the summer? I've been following the comments and find ones similar to these increasing and very disturbing.

Mint is more like Windows by default, where the minimize, maximize and close options are in the top right hand corner. Ubuntu puts them on the top taskbar like MacOS(perhaps this is configurable).

I installed Mint. It looks nice and easy to use. Its similar to windows. Thanku :)

I tried both using bootable USB stick. As a windows user I liked Mint more. Thanx :)

I tried both. Mint looks same like windows.. Easy to use and it looks nice... I like it :)

'buntu/Mint are getting lots of new fanbois onboard. And since Gnome is the default DE, that will be the DE of choice for a new generation of Windows users coming to Linux because it's soooo cool looking like Windoze. Quite a coup considering the imminent systemd/gnome lock-down. These sheeple will never know the freedom that Debian (and Linux) once offered. They won't care because 'it looks and works like Windoze shiny GUI and all. Disgusting.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say this Linux promotion has been engineered to herd as many sheeple as possible into the Linux of the future at a critical time. Before long the knowledge of 'old school Linux' will be lost in history. Devolution in action . . .
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby Bulkley » 2014-10-23 00:04

That most users like the look and feel of a top heavy desk top doesn't bother me as long as I can still use a window manager of my choice.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby rhy7s » 2014-10-23 02:28

golinux wrote:Before long the knowledge of 'old school Linux' will be lost in history. Devolution in action . . .

Have fun going 'old school' and grab your kernel from ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby kolker » 2014-10-23 04:59

One thing that will never change is Linux at its core being open source and that is where our freedom really comes from. There is nothing wrong with project that fit a nitch for as long as we have the freedom nitches can be filled. My nitch is minimal and I love dwm its not for every one but I like it. Freedom is about choice.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby edbarx » 2014-10-23 09:54

As long as there is an open source that is free to modify, GNU/Linux will never be like Windows. Yes, there will be desktops employing monstrosities like systemd and svchost, but the more serious GNU/Linux user who wants stability, flexibility, modularity and freedom, will undoubtedly opt to use the less glittery side of GNU/Linux. This becomes obvious for all those involved in maintaining large amounts of servers and also those who want to exercise total control over their system.

I don't blame newbies who find GNU/Linux so frustratingly different from Windows wanting to change GNU/Linux to something they know as a first reaction. However, first reactions by the unaware, uninformed, and uneducated are seldom objective. Yes, the acquisition of new knowledge can be painful at first, but it usually pays off with more control over what one does by giving more autonomy to the user.

Choice is a positive, prescribed configurations for everyone are bad design by nature as they kill creativity and new ideas of how a system should be.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-10-23 18:51

Hello All

IceWM can do a pretty good XP impression, as can XFCE4 with a single bottom panel and no 'dock-like but not a dock' panel. I always used to run Gnome 2 with a single bottom panel. People moving from Windows may find this a welcome reassurance initially. A few may move slowly into a different orbit (tiling wms &c). The GUI isn't so much the issue.

The concern everyone has I think is more the mudballification of the underlying OS. I think edbarx will be proved right eventually. People will fork. The GPL guarantees access to source code. I'm sure Mr Poettering has a glowing career ahead of him... hopefully with Microsoft working on Windows 11 :twisted:
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby Bulkley » 2014-10-23 22:16

edbarx wrote:I don't blame newbies who find GNU/Linux so frustratingly different from Windows wanting to change GNU/Linux to something they know as a first reaction.


Every time I get near a Windows machine I am frustrated to the point of unsavoury language. Tasks that are so easy in Linux are impossibly difficult for me in Windows. But of course, Windows fans don't want to hear me disparage their choice. It works both ways.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby jobine702 » 2014-10-24 14:02

A lot of distris see Linux (GNU/Linux, but then might as well say GNU/Linux/Apache/MySQL/LibreOffice/X11/[insert package here]) as an OS is simply trying to replace Windows/Mac as an OS for the masses. This is why a lot of them focus on being integrated and presentable, and providing users with a desktop environment they are either familiar with, or attracted to because of the improved features over Windows or Mac.

Is Debian one of those distributions? Probably not, and that's why many distros forked debian (Ubuntu/Mint and others) in order to achieve such.

As much as you hate the "sheeple", they make up most of the marketshare, regardless of what a minority on the internet says. Look at Google Chrome OS. It's even lacking more functionality than windows, but it 's praised by the "sheeple" because it is a low maintenance system, and it's gaining lots of market share, especially with the fact that it has one of the biggest IT companies backing it up. Fortunately, there are still many distros that are geared for power users, such as Debian, Arch, Gentoo and whatnot.

That's the advantage of Linux, freedom of choice. You can install whatever package you want, even if your distro does not support it, and thanks to the open source nature of Linux, if a developer choses to control it's users, users can then fork the project and create their own version of a said package or service.

From previous posts i've been told that systemd tries to make as many packages rely on it as possible, which is removing this freedom of choice. However, the benefits are that you gain a unified development platform across all distributions.

The problem is, do we want freedom of choice, or a more unified platform?

If Linux wants to compete with proprietary OSes, it will possibly need to reduce it's fragmentation to make it easier for software developers that want to migrate their projects to Linux. But possibly, at the cost of our freedom. Food for thought.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby Bulkley » 2014-10-24 16:06

jobine702 wrote:That's the advantage of Linux, freedom of choice. You can install whatever package you want, even if your distro does not support it, and thanks to the open source nature of Linux, if a developer choses to control it's users, users can then fork the project and create their own version of a said package or service.


Back in the day, I liked early Windows. That was when I could use DOS to manipulate what I wanted. Then along came 95 and frustration. With Linux, even with distros that try to imitate Windows, terminals and consoles are easily available and I can do my CLI as I see fit. If someone wants to add some eye candy to their system it doesn't interfere with mine.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby buntunub » 2014-10-24 19:04

jobine702 wrote:The problem is, do we want freedom of choice, or a more unified platform?

If Linux wants to compete with proprietary OSes, it will possibly need to reduce it's fragmentation to make it easier for software developers that want to migrate their projects to Linux. But possibly, at the cost of our freedom. Food for thought.


Crazy me! I forgot to ask my Linux if it wanted to match any proprietary systems out there! I just assumed it did not want to! :o

Are you f***ing kidding me? Some kind of a sick joke that is. In all honesty, who gives a f*** if Linux can compete with Windows for market share on the desktop? Only entity I am aware of that does are the major Corporations who stand to make absolutely obscene fortunes off using Linux for free to push their products to the idiot masses. They will be making said fortunes off the backs of volunteer developers, who would also be rather gullible for allowing their donated work to be sold so cheaply. A LOT of these volunteer developers - most, in fact - contributed their time for the cause of computing freedom, which is now worth exactly nothing.

I see some people posting about Open Source and "freedom". Will I have the "freedom" to use SysV on my Jessie+ system without breaking anything on GNOME? At this moment in time, NO! Soon, I most likely will not be able to use SysV + any DE without breaking things. Tell me about freedom again. The only freedom you will have after Jessie is to use Systemd and shut the f*** up.

As the Debian Developers are now fond of saying though, Debian is a "doocracy", which means that you have the freedom to use what they give you or not. That is their way of saying that they develop Debian the way they see fit, and if you don't like it, f*** off! They also like to say now that Debian is a "club". A club for who? Guess! If you really believe that is freedom, I have some chains that will probably fit your legs that you can feel free to strap on.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby chrissywissy » 2014-10-25 07:13

golinux wrote:Remember the free edX course that was offered by the Linux Foundation at the end of the summer? I've been following the comments and find ones similar to these increasing and very disturbing.

Mint is more like Windows by default, where the minimize, maximize and close options are in the top right hand corner. Ubuntu puts them on the top taskbar like MacOS(perhaps this is configurable).

I installed Mint. It looks nice and easy to use. Its similar to windows. Thanku :)

I tried both using bootable USB stick. As a windows user I liked Mint more. Thanx :)

I tried both. Mint looks same like windows.. Easy to use and it looks nice... I like it :)

'buntu/Mint are getting lots of new fanbois onboard. And since Gnome is the default DE, that will be the DE of choice for a new generation of Windows users coming to Linux because it's soooo cool looking like Windoze. Quite a coup considering the imminent systemd/gnome lock-down. These sheeple will never know the freedom that Debian (and Linux) once offered. They won't care because 'it looks and works like Windoze shiny GUI and all. Disgusting.If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say this Linux promotion has been engineered to herd as many sheeple as possible into the Linux of the future at a critical time. Before long the knowledge of 'old school Linux' will be lost in history. Devolution in action . . .


I've long suspected that there is a conspiracy to keep Mint at the top of the Distrowatch poll. The few people I know who use desktop Linux are either on Debian (mostly) or something from the 'buntu family. No sign of Mint anywhere.

Back to the point of the thread - Debian remains an OPTION in the Linux world, of which there are many. I freely admit that I don't understand the intricacies of the systemd argument, but would like to remind people of the old saying:

Most people welcome 'progress'. Few enjoy 'change'.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby exploder » 2014-10-25 18:10

Linux is the same as it has always been, it has always had change and always will. What is wrong with a shiny GUI? Should we go back to a text based system like in the beginning? Should we all go back to doing everything in the terminal?

The new Debian installer offers a choice of desktop environments, it is not rocket science to choose what you want. One of the reasons behind using Gnome Shell as the default was because it has the best accessibility options, should we just forget about people that are sight and hearing impaired?

Systemd is not my cup of tea but there was a vote and it was chosen as the best current option. Since I am not the one developing the distro and building 30,000 packages I have no right to complain.

There is no conspiracy with Mint being at the top of the DistroWatch poll. If you notice, Debian has the number 3 spot and Debian does not release near as often as Mint and Ubuntu. Doesn't that say something?

Rather than spend time complaining, if you are so unhappy build your own distro. Use some obscure window manager that you have to manually edit a menu and no GUI tools so you can memorize countless commands. Better yet, why not go with Linux From Scratch and spend days getting a running system? I see too many people think they are somehow advanced users because they use some outdated window manager and the command line for everything.

I can remember having to know every detail about my monitor to be able to install Linux or else the monitor could be destroyed. I remember having to manually create all my partitions too. Do I really want to go back to that? No! Should we go back to some hideous looking GUI to say we have freedom? No. Should I criticize Debian for the choices they have made? No.

I plan to continue enjoying the development cycle for Jesse and help out where I can.
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby n_hologram » 2014-10-25 18:52

exploder wrote:Linux is the same as it has always been, it has always had change and always will. What is wrong with a shiny GUI? Should we go back to a text based system like in the beginning? Should we all go back to doing everything in the terminal?

The new Debian installer offers a choice of desktop environments, it is not rocket science to choose what you want. One of the reasons behind using Gnome Shell as the default was because it has the best accessibility options, should we just forget about people that are sight and hearing impaired?

Systemd is not my cup of tea but there was a vote and it was chosen as the best current option. Since I am not the one developing the distro and building 30,000 packages I have no right to complain.

...

Rather than spend time complaining, if you are so unhappy build your own distro. Use some obscure window manager that you have to manually edit a menu and no GUI tools so you can memorize countless commands. Better yet, why not go with Linux From Scratch and spend days getting a running system? I see too many people think they are somehow advanced users because they use some outdated window manager and the command line for everything.

I can remember having to know every detail about my monitor to be able to install Linux or else the monitor could be destroyed. I remember having to manually create all my partitions too. Do I really want to go back to that? No! Should we go back to some hideous looking GUI to say we have freedom? No. Should I criticize Debian for the choices they have made? No.

I plan to continue enjoying the development cycle for Jesse and help out where I can.

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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby exploder » 2014-10-25 19:05



Probably so... Just tired of all the complaints...
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

Postby n_hologram » 2014-10-25 19:59

exploder wrote:


Probably so... Just tired of all the complaints...

Yes, complaints without solutions can get exhausting. But part of the issue lies in systemd's constraints on users' ability to make alternatives (the forums are overflowing with threads about this) and the perception, or reality, that the Debian devs aren't acknowledging this as an issue (despite as I said, the forums overflowing with threads about this). Many users aren't necessarily suffering an existential crisis over a new init system; for many, it's just that the implications of suffocating one's choice are just disconcerning.

Because Poettering et al. do not care about users' wants, there is a pervading and justified fear that a single person/group may dictate future versions of Linux. It should be obvious that this is counter-intuitive to core Linux philosophies, hence much of the rage you've been seeing.

For me, much of the appeal of Linux arises from being able to use a super-functional system with low hardware (Raspberry Pi, Atom netbook, etc.) Terminal utilities and shell scripts provide a great alternative to the bloatware which makes a Windows environment infuriating. Many grievances arise from the possibility that Poettering et al are trying to convolute Linux into Windows. tomazzi recently posted an insightful quote regarding the stupidity of creating an inflexible init system, relating systemd to svchost, but I can't find it and I have to plan a lesson. So, no, it isn't "rocket science" to choose another DE if everything depends on a core component which suffers crippling flaws.

There are more qualified users with more sophisticated insights on this issue, so you should talk to them if you're genuinely interested in this controversy. I just want to use my webbrowser/terminal-oriented environment with as few dependencies and used resources as possible. If future versions of Linux -- or specific distributions -- disregard these needs, then yes, I will explore other possibilities.

I know it can be tempting to say, "if you don't like progress, then giiit out." But the larger issue is, "why recreate Windows?"
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