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Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-27 18:07
by twoflowers
n_hologram wrote: If future versions of Linux -- or specific distributions -- disregard these needs, then yes, I will explore other possibilities.

As I'm already on the way of exploring alternatives ... FreeBSD 10 is really nice :mrgreen:

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 08:19
by edbarx
edbarx wrote:What is Linux becoming?

GNU/Linux was reknown for CHOICE and for the total absence of software lockins and lockouts. The latter two characteristics, motivated many people globally to abandon their proprietary OS to use something that respected their rights as users, instead of treating them only as clueless consumers.

Without CHOICE, GNU/Linux will not longer be GNU/Linux, maybe, one can call it, TIOLI (for take it or leave it).

What a pessimistic post, shame on me! :shock: :o :x

Since the source is openly available, and the license allows modification of the source, alternatives to systemd and any other monstrosity that crops up, will be created. However, one has to allow enough time for that to happen. This is the same thing with bloated desktops: since many prefer lean GUIs, alternatives have been created. GNU/Linux users are not necessarily KDE and GNOME users. :mrgreen:

At the moment, I am thinking about ldd which can be used to determine the library dependences of executables. This tool will uncover which libraries I will need to continue using XFCE* and to rid myself of other questionable packages.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 20:49
by tomazzi
edbarx wrote:Since the source is openly available, and the license allows modification of the source, alternatives to systemd and any other monstrosity that crops up, will be created. However, one has to allow enough time for that to happen.

Do You give up?

I was thinking, that since You were trying to fork lisystemd-login library, then You are fully understanding the problem with systemd...

Systemd have proved, that OpenSource can be closed - by the fact, that "upstream" and also seemingly open projects like Debian, are requiring particular source code to be used. Do I have to explain it to You how systemd code is complicated? There are no alternatives until the "upstream" or Debian will allow it to happen.
The only way (as for now) to have freedom of choice is to fork Debian. Alternatively one can fork systemd, but all the binary ifaces have to be preserved - because otherwise Debian would not accept it - this is the current situation.

What have changed since You have tried to write a fork?


Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 21:07
by edbarx
tomazzi wrote:What have changed since You have tried to write a fork?

I debianized uselessd but I didn't install it.

My hesitation is not due to software complexity but due to something totally unrelated to computers. I can tell you what it is in a private message.

Unlike computers, human beings are far too complicated...

Satisfying dependencies is becoming a problem as other packages depend on packages I attempted to replace. I found no way of telling the package management tools that a package is intended to replace another one offering the latter's functionality. I tried several keywords in the debian/control file like Replaces, Conflicts, Provides, etc., to no avail. For instance, my logic dictated to me that Provides can be used to state that uselessd 'provides' the functions expected from systemd which would mean the latter wouldn't be needed.

I badly need to instruct the package management that package A has all the functionality of package B. Therefore B, should not be needed as B is only a subset of A's functionality.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 21:59
by golinux
FYI, fsmithred has posted a 'Proto-Refracta Jessie with sysvinit' iso that appears to be systemd-free

Code: Select all
:~$ cat package_list | grep systemd

You can download it here:

Discussion here and here:

Any comments from those who actually understand the 'plumbing'?

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 22:05
by tomazzi
edbarx wrote:Unlike computers, human beings are far too complicated...

look, Edbarx, it's not only You who have problems.
My youngest son has a genetic sickness (extremely rare PEHO syndrome) - he is 3 years old and there's no hope that he will funcion normally ever in his life. Im not crying, I'm fighiting - with doctors and with the reality. Please don't give up just because You have a suspiction of cancer - live young, die free.
Don't give up Your ideals...

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-28 22:26
by edbarx
Thanks for posting about Refracta.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 00:06
by buntunub
Edbarx. Tomazzi did an OK job at trying to explain things a tad. It is not about Systemd so much as it is about Debians increasingly dictatorial, VERY undemocratic processes in choosing Systemd as the soon to be (we all can see the writing on the wall here) ONLY choice. There was no consultation with the Debian Users, and, more worrying still, the DDs were unable to even reach a consensus to get a GR done on this. Abject disregard for Debian users is now the new norm. Making decisions to put experimental software in Stable releases. Systemd was merely the straw that crushed the Camels back, not just broke it, but destroyed any semblance of trust between the Debian leadership and the userbase forever. This distro is done. Thankfully, there are people who love Debian enough to try to save her, but I wonder if its too little, too late? What I can tell you is that this Distro will never be the same again, and may not even survive long into the future. Crying shame, and the blame is 150% on each and every Debian Developer and Contributor. Too spineless to stand against the machine; too timid to give a sh*t enough to get the initial GR off the ground.

So that is Debians fate. Now on to Systemd. One could say - see above. Systemd is the end of Linux and the Free Software movement. For all the reasons oh so many big names in the Linux world have bent over backwards trying to point out. RMS is an absentee landlord. The new movement is in your hands Edbarx. Yours and all those who wish to save the ideals of what we all once loved.

I found a pic of Poetering wearing a T-shirt that says, "Open Source Tea Party". Let me tell you this. He has no idea about the Tea Party or what it stands for. If he wants a Tea Party movement in Linux, he is solely responsible for making that happen - against him. That movement is all about ridding the common man from the tyranny of big govt. In his case, the new Open Source Tea Party is all about ridding the common Linux user from Poetering and Systemd. This movement is growing larger and more vocal daily.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 02:56
by fleabus

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 08:06
by twoflowers
A word on "faster booting": My quadcore dektop takes ~ 5 seconds from power up to grub. And wheezy takes 20 seconds from there to a full running TDE. The idential disk image running on my old T60 takes ~ 5 seconds to grub and then 5 seconds to TDE. Why? Well, it uses a SSD insted of a HD. What could I possibly gain by systemd?

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 08:26
by edbarx
A faster boot process only meaningfully applies to when MS Windows booted in enough time for anyone to boil water, make a cup of tea, have some biscuits, drink it and forget it altogether! This is cheap manipulative promotional jargon aimed at attracting a larger clientele.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 12:47
by twoflowers
debianxfce wrote:me me me, not everyone has quad core cpu or ssd. You cry here that debian is universal os and then booting time improvment is not important for example for her: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=118303

Sorry, you did not get my posting: T60 is 1.5 GHz C2D and boots faster than my desktop with a quad X3360 @ 2.83GHz. My servers take several minutes from power-on to grub! You cannot argue that issues away with "systemd is booting faster", 'caus the supposed gain is irrelevant. It's the hardware that slows you down.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 12:58
by twoflowers
Yes, that's the essence of it. BTW, TDE fits on a CD, too, here's the download of the life-CD: ... ux_4.2.iso - just can't wait to get it runnung on BSD, but it's on it's way

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-10-29 16:08
by fleabus
Since I have no hardware newer than five years, I tend to explore lighter options. TDE is growing on me. In addition to exe, I also tried q4os, which is very stripped down:

Q4OS - 64bit / x64 ... 315 MBytes

Q4OS - 32bit / i386 ... 337 MBytes

It's still in beta, but the beta worked very well on my machines. Looks promising.

These days MX-14, SolydX Business Edition, and Salix are my "main drivers".
The effort being put into exe, q4os, and refracta are keeping hope alive in the remaining neuron.

The problem with any Debian based solution is keeping the mudball away. Agree with edbarx/tomazzi that it's early times. If Debian-based solutions are going to be cooked up they'll need time to come to fruition. Sorry all, for my blathering and ranting. I surprised myself. Having seen this kind of thing in the software world so many times, the feeling is cynicism followed by apathy, then lethargy, at which point it becomes dangerous to the psyche and one must hunt for some kind of solution. I haven't felt this strongly about something in many years. I fell in love with a Debian that was already on its way out by the time I came into the picture. I have no business complaining, indeed saying anything at all. It's not my distro.

Re: What is Linux becoming?

PostPosted: 2014-12-31 04:37
by k e i t h
golinux wrote:Remember the free edX course that was offered by the Linux Foundation at the end of the summer? I've been following the comments and find ones similar to these increasing and very disturbing.

Mint is more like Windows by default, where the minimize, maximize and close options are in the top right hand corner. Ubuntu puts them on the top taskbar like MacOS(perhaps this is configurable).

I installed Mint. It looks nice and easy to use. Its similar to windows. Thanku :)

I tried both using bootable USB stick. As a windows user I liked Mint more. Thanx :)

I tried both. Mint looks same like windows.. Easy to use and it looks nice... I like it :)

'buntu/Mint are getting lots of new fanbois onboard. And since Gnome is the default DE, that will be the DE of choice for a new generation of Windows users coming to Linux because it's soooo cool looking like Windoze. Quite a coup considering the imminent systemd/gnome lock-down. These sheeple will never know the freedom that Debian (and Linux) once offered. They won't care because 'it looks and works like Windoze shiny GUI and all. Disgusting.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say this Linux promotion has been engineered to herd as many sheeple as possible into the Linux of the future at a critical time. Before long the knowledge of 'old school Linux' will be lost in history. Devolution in action . . .

I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is, tbh i can"t believe i was thinking of buying windows 8. I should of tried this OS long ago like my friends have been telling me, i should of listened. only bad thing now is i can"t get off the computer :lol: