Debian User Forums

The only problem with Windows 8 is that its Windows 8. Windows 7 is much better. Even Jessie GNOME is better than Windows 8, and that says alot.

k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is

At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.

schnuller wrote:

k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is

At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.

Its quite easy to get a pirated copy of WIndows. It is virus resistant if you unplug the ethernet cable and take out the wireless. WIndows 7 is quite stable. So there you go. A free safe Windows!

There should be <sarcasm>-tags in the forum

buntunub wrote:

schnuller wrote:

k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is

At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.

Its quite easy to get a pirated copy of WIndows. It is virus resistant if you unplug the ethernet cable and take out the wireless. WIndows 7 is quite stable. So there you go. A free safe Windows!

Whenever i use Windows i either take a pirated version or just use the official one for 3 months. I don't even bother to install antiVirus, and never had no problems. XP wasn't unstable for me neither.

I still don't think that look and feel is what should make one pick Debian as the distribution of choice (Or any other distro, in case it matters). If someone would say "i have picked gnome over kde, or theme A over theme B, cause i like it's look and feel better" is something i could understand.
I like the look and feel of Win7 way more than any environment i know when using Linux, btw.

schnuller wrote:Whenever i use Windows i either take a pirated version or just use the official one for 3 months. I don't even bother to install antiVirus, and never had no problems. XP wasn't unstable for me neither.

At lest few things should be explained here:
1. Congratulations: publicly available, pirated copies of winblows are not *free* - they are just including or are prepared for troyans. And You, because of believing in a second-hand or "mastered" versions of winblows are just a naive victim - again: congratulations... (windows MX f.e. is a great example of how to blow up users' arse)
2. Windows is relatively stable as long, as You don't try to install programs on it .... that will kill its performance, becausae it's not prepared to launch any programs but also due to a to a simple fact:
Every single program for winblows contains malware, add-ons for your browser, antivirus software (usually that utter crap called McAffee) and yet more crap.

So, congratulations - You have found Your favourite OS - I have to spend a lot more time to have one ...

PS.

schnuller wrote: I like the look and feel of Win7 way more than any environment i know when using Linux, btw.

Did You know that pre-SP1 win7 have used win95/98 icons for hardware manager? whoa...

Wherever Linux is heading, it keeps improving!

My first experience with Linux was through Slackware back in 1997. In those days - well before conveniences like CUPS and ALSA appeared on the scene - Linux was not for the fainthearted. You had to rebake your own kernel to get any kind of printer support (however primitive), sound was sometimes an option but only if you had a genuine Creative Soundblaster soundcard.

X window managers - if you had one - were primitive and not easy to get going. Strangely enough one early X window manager, Motif, was neither open source not free: a licence cost about $150. The Freeware Window Manager (fvwm) soon took over even though, in the early days, the most common applications were an Xterminal and an Xclock. As for the rest, you'd better know your Unix commands.

Now look at what we've got today: a universal operating system with a huge array of software - all open source. You can do sound, video or photo editing, write your own music, do book publishing or web design, play games or whatever, all with GNU open source software that's as good as, if not better than, commercial alternatives. My daily work computer has been MSWindows-free for more than 10 years and I've never felt the need to go back (or even use WINE).

And as for Linux becoming more and more like Windows, I vividly remember "fvwm95", a desktop current in the last 1990s, designed to make Linux look like Windows95 as much as possible. So what's new? Anyway, my suspicion is that Windows these days might slowly be becoming a bit more like Linux!

So rather than bicker about relative pluses or minuses of different distros or systemd vs. sysVinit, let us remember that Linux is Linux and stay united behind the GNU open source community.

The Freeware Window Manager (fvwm) soon took over even though,

I assumed it would mean "fuckin virtual window manager", but seem to have been wrong:
http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#1.1

People still care for GNU? Looked to me as if after the whole "open source" debate most have chosen that path (considering GNU to be a pain in the ass from the past ...).

Not all of the software in the Debian repos is from GNU, of course. You seem to confuse terms.

What you tell of the past sounds more like my kind of thing, btw.

tomazzi wrote: Every single program for winblows contains malware, add-ons for your browser, antivirus software (usually that utter crap called McAffee) and yet more crap.

Are you telling me that vim, emacs, claws-mail, geany, zim, firefox, thunderbird, codeblocks, etc contain malware, add-ons or antivirus software, when i install them on Windows?
OMG. OMG. I am all lost now. If i only had known. You made me see the light.

Well: i for one was and am able to start programs in Windows, even after installing applications. I guess other people are also capable of doing it, else no one would use it, or?
I used it, for example, on a Pentium4, btw (Windows7, that is).

Did i say somewhere it is my favorite OS? Can you give me the link and the quote? (I cuold swear i ain't got no favorite OS, nor care for such question, but if i have said it, then ... perhaps i got one, without knowing it).

At least it works: Just don't bash Windows like an idiot, and the fanboy phrases get repeated as if they were never said before.
There are higher goals than being a better OS than Windows.

Ok, I've oversized the problem a bit. Definitely, it was not entirely true that *every single program* contains malware. Perhaps, I should say that "every single commercial software" contains malware...

Of course, You have provided valid examples of Free Software which has been ported to winblows, but at the same time, You have failed with avoiding to answer to my claim, that commercial software is pirated for profit, and naive users are just the victims of this practice.

schnuller wrote:People still care for GNU? Looked to me as if after the whole "open source" debate most have chosen that path (considering GNU to be a pain in the ass from the past ...).

Definitely, You have completely no idea about what is GNU project, so better just stop talking about it, unless You want to show yourself as a complete idiot...

... in case if in doubt: binutils, gcc and lots of other projects have the roots in GNU project.

...strange, what are You doing here?- perhaps windows forums would be more interresting for ya...

tomazzi wrote: Definitely, You have completely no idea about what is GNU project, so better just stop talking about it, unless You want to show yourself as a complete idiot...

... in case if in doubt: binutils, gcc and lots of other projects have the roots in GNU project.

The packages from GNU:
3dldf a2ps acct acm adns alive anubis apl archimedes aris aspell auctex autoconf autoconf-archive autogen automake avl ballandpaddle barcode bash bayonne bazaar bc bfd binutils bison bool bpel2owfn c-graph ccaudio ccd2cue ccide ccrtp ccscript cflow cgicc chess cim classpath classpathx clisp cobol combine commoncpp complexity config consensus coreutils cpio cppi cssc cursynth dap datamash dc ddd ddrescue dejagnu denemo dia dico diction diffutils dionysus direvent djgpp dmd dominion dr-geo easejs ed edma electric emacs emacs-muse emms enscript eprints epsilon fdisk ferret findutils fisicalab fontutils freedink freefont freeipmi freetalk fribidi gama garpd gawk gcal gcc gcide gcl gcompris gdb gdbm gengen gengetopt gettext gforth ggradebook ghostscript gift gimp gleem glib global glpk glue gmediaserver gmp gnash gnat gnats gnatsweb gnome gnowsys gnu-c-manual gnu-crypto gnu-pw-mgr gnuae gnubatch gnubg gnubiff gnubik gnucap gnucash gnucobol gnucomm gnudos gnue gnufm gnugo gnuit gnujdoc gnujump gnukart gnulib gnumach gnumed gnumeric gnump3d gnun gnunet gnupg gnupod gnuprologjava gnuradio gnurobots gnuschool gnushogi gnusound gnuspeech gnuspool gnustandards gnustep gnutls gnutrition gnuzilla goptical gorm gpaint gperf gprolog grabcoamics greg grep gretl groff grub gsasl gsegrafix gsl gsrc gss gtick gtk+ gtypist guile guile-dbi guile-gnome guile-ncurses guile-opengl guile-rpc guile-sdl guix gurgle gv gvpe gxmessage gzip halifax health hello help2man hp2xx httptunnel hurd hyperbole icecat idutils ignuit indent inetutils inklingreader intlfonts jacal java-getopt jel jwhois kawa kopi leg less libc libcdio libdbh liberty-eiffel libextractor libffcall libgcrypt libiconv libidn libjit libmatheval libmicrohttpd libredwg librejs libsigsegv libtasn1 libtool libunistring libxmi lightning lilypond lims linux-libre liquidwar6 lispintro lrzsz lsh m4 macchanger mailman mailutils make marst maverik mc mcron mcsim mdk mediagoblin melting metaexchange metahtml mifluz mig miscfiles mit-scheme moe motti mpc mpfr mpria mtools nana nano nano-archimedes ncurses nettle network ocrad octave oleo orgadoc osip panorama parallel parted pascal patch paxutils pcb pdf pem pexec pgccfd phantom_home pies pipo plotutils polyxmass powerguru proxyknife pspp psychosynth pth pyconfigure pythonwebkit qexo quickthreads r radius rcs readline recutils reftex remotecontrol rottlog rpge rush sather scm screen sed serveez sharutils shishi shmm shtool sipwitch slib smalltalk social solfege spacechart speex spell sqltutor src-highlite stalkerfs stow stump superopt swbis sysutils talkfilters tar termcap termutils teseq teximpatient texinfo texmacs thales time tramp trans-coord trueprint unifont units unrtf userv uucp vc-dwim vcdimager vera vmgen wb wdiff websocket4j webstump wget which womb xaos xboard xhippo xlogmaster xmlat xnee xorriso zile

Doesn't make me have a clue of GNU at all, cause all someone has to do is to go to gnu.org or here http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/GNU or here: https://savannah.gnu.org/
Still not all software offered by Debian, or all open source software, is from the GNU project. And still there is a difference between saying "free software" and "open source".

I can only say in a Windows forum that every other day i have a look at Windows? Well .... that is what i call open-minded.

tomazzi wrote: Of course, You have provided valid examples of Free Software which has been ported to winblows, but at the same time, You have failed with avoiding to answer to my claim, that commercial software is pirated for profit, and naive users are just the victims of this practice.

Of course that is true. Just like the naive Linux users are victims of other things.
But why should i repeate something which is getting repeated like a gospel anyway?

My point is: LInux isn't "better". It *can* be better for certain people. Using Linux doesn't make anyone being not naive.
A step forward would be if more people would focus on "free software", instead of focusing on "being better than Windows" (which, hand on the heart, isn't that hard).

Or, to put it more clear:
I care crap what OS other people use.
And i sure wouldn't know what distribution of Linux to recommend, in case someone would ask me. Most look like utter crap to me, including Debian (*after* they completely lost track of "kiss").

Golinux,

Been a member here for like 4yrs, approaching 800 posts and this ? Now while I kinda get what you're saying, gotta say I heartily disagree too.

Was actually thinking about this the other day and said self, seems like the vast majority of gnu/linux users don't give a feck about opensource. They just want to watch net-p0rn0, send emails all the stuff everyone w a window$ system wants to do. Then said self, isn't this a disgusting thing ? Self thought about it for awhile and replied, nope it's exactly the way it's supposed to be dude.

The avg gnu/linux user isn't a tech genuis or a rocket scientist. The people who've spent decades of their lives growing, contributing and pushing opensource forward are and I think they're AWESOME. They "tore down the walls" for a reason imo. They want all they've done to be available to the world. Want it to be appreciated, get some credit/attention and likely hoping to see it accomplish something positive for humanity overall. It's doing exactly that too.

They no doubt knew this, while tearing down the walls and letting ordinary non-tech genius types have access to the products of all their hard-work, time, energy, expense etc etc. Would all they've done be better if only 12,000 people world-wide were able to use and enjoy it ?

Some distro's make effort, even go out of their way to keep the techno-walls up. By doing so they seem to-imo, be saying if you're a lazy azzhat, who doesn't want to learn anything about a subject we're passionate about ... THEN STAY OUT, WE DON'T WANT YOU AROUND.

ie: Gentoo, Arch linux, esp Arch, they make no secret they want a certain audience and people who aren't in that audience need to go elsewhere. Not saying Arch is bad either, I like it, when I've used it. Always heard great things about Gentoo and have been thinking about switching to it. I just prefer Debian.

These things-imo are also exactly as their supposed to be too. Like you mention in your profile, you aren't a buntard and nobody has to be. TONS of people who will go on to be/are knowledgeable and passionate about opensource and technology start w buntu. I started w LMint10 myself, shrugs. Personally I still agree it's "buntu done right" @ least much better.

So keep your head up, opensource rocks, plenty of people who will keep appreciating it, keep helping it push the tech envelop and keep it growing among the userbase. Esp the uber-geekdom of opensource. They'll keep on keeping on and being AWESOME.

dang it ... in for penny, in for a pound.

Also just to be totally fair. There are tons of people that know a metric shizzleton about gnu/nix and use buntu or LM for a million reasons. ie: They don't want to take the time to setup xyz vid card or printer on xyz distro. Sometimes it's just easier and more expedient to use one of the uber newb friendly distro's.

I've installed + used LM again at times myself. Cause it was a good distro for the situation. The whole right tool for the job ( or again ... just the easy button.) Though you can tweak the hades out of LM or buntu too. Customize them to hell and gone etc etc. Rip out unity or cinnamon and install whatever someone wants ... blahblah blah. Start w a minimal net-install or or or. You get the point.

Have done it meself and seen plenty of others do it. An install of LM i'd be happy with will look and perform nothing like what the avg Mint fan considers a great gnu/nix install, shrugs. Same for almost every distro in the world.

First of all, the title of this topic is entirely inappropriate: It should be something like: "What is Debian and some other GNU/Linux distros becoming?"

I do understand why many people are calling GNU/Linux as just Linux - this is a shortcut, simplification, which is just easier to pronounce.

However, most of newbies and trolls do not understand where the GNU part is coming from, so I think that it should be (again) clarified in this topic.

GNU is the Operating System which we are all using. This project was settled long before Linux kernel have even started to exist. Although Linus is so proud of his work, and he's making selfish claims about how he and his work is important today, the truth is, that his kernel was a piece of crap in the beginning, and the only reason why it is used so widely today, is that it have been choosen by GNU developers as a default kernel.

Thanks to that, thousants of developers and enthusiasts have started to improve and develop that crappy kernel, and only thanks to that Linux is now what it is ( the most successful software in the world, but not thanks to Linus Torvalds )

So, if someone is negatively speaking of "gnuism" in regard to GNU project, which have settled the rules and is backing the free/open sotware world with a lawyers support, GPL and lots of great software (like gcc, ssh, binutils, etc), then for me he's just an uneducated moron, or just a troll.

Just don't forget about GNU, when You say Linux

Another thing is, that Linux is not becoming anythig else than it already is: it's just GNU/Linux distros, infiltrated by former an present RedHat employes, who are trying hard to make the world dependant on RedHat. They are just getting paid for doing this - at least this looks like the most probable reason...

Regards.

tomazzi . . . did you even read that first post? It was a comment expressing my disappointment about the Linux Foundation's free edX course - Introduction to Linux - that was offered last fall. In that context the use of 'Linux' is appropriate IMO because that's how the LF billed the course. In light of the systemd debacle, the course appears to be a prelude to the new OneLinux world that Red Hat envisions. They'll need lots of new sysadmins to man those support desks . . . kachink, kachink . . .

That being said . . . your comments are well-taken.

tomazzi wrote:First of all, the title of this topic is entirely inappropriate: It should be something like: "What is Debian and some other GNU/Linux distros becoming?"

I do understand why many people are calling GNU/Linux as just Linux - this is a shortcut, simplification, which is just easier to pronounce.

However, most of newbies and trolls do not understand where the GNU part is coming from, so I think that it should be (again) clarified in this topic.

GNU is the Operating System which we are all using. This project was settled long before Linux kernel have even started to exist. Although Linus is so proud of his work, and he's making selfish claims about how he and his work is important today, the truth is, that his kernel was a piece of crap in the beginning, and the only reason why it is used so widely today, is that it have been choosen by GNU developers as a default kernel.

Thanks to that, thousants of developers and enthusiasts have started to improve and develop that crappy kernel, and only thanks to that Linux is now what it is ( the most successful software in the world, but not thanks to Linus Torvalds )

So, if someone is negatively speaking of "gnuism" in regard to GNU project, which have settled the rules and is backing the free/open sotware world with a lawyers support, GPL and lots of great software (like gcc, ssh, binutils, etc), then for me he's just an uneducated moron, or just a troll.

Just don't forget about GNU, when You say Linux

Another thing is, that Linux is not becoming anythig else than it already is: it's just GNU/Linux distros, infiltrated by former an present RedHat employes, who are trying hard to make the world dependant on RedHat. They are just getting paid for doing this - at least this looks like the most probable reason...

Regards.

All is right and well said. Imho.
The problem for me: Where are the users who care for such? It is a minority (so small, not even worth calling it a minority).

It really is time for a GNU operating system with a GNU kernel (which, if i understand correct, would be the Hurd and i think more precise Mach). For those people who do care.

Ubuntu and Mint did a good job ... in making Linux what it is today. Linux not as an operating system, but as a social ecosystem.

Probably that's the problem of Linux: The people we ran from in the Windows world have finally arrived in Linuxland, wearing their hawaii shirts and tastless habits.

tomazzi wrote:

schnuller wrote:Whenever i use Windows i either take a pirated version or just use the official one for 3 months. I don't even bother to install antiVirus, and never had no problems. XP wasn't unstable for me neither.

At lest few things should be explained here:
1. Congratulations: publicly available, pirated copies of winblows are not *free* - they are just including or are prepared for troyans. And You, because of believing in a second-hand or "mastered" versions of winblows are just a naive victim - again: congratulations... (windows MX f.e. is a great example of how to blow up users' arse)
2. Windows is relatively stable as long, as You don't try to install programs on it .... that will kill its performance, becausae it's not prepared to launch any programs but also due to a to a simple fact:
Every single program for winblows contains malware, add-ons for your browser, antivirus software (usually that utter crap called McAffee) and yet more crap.

So, congratulations - You have found Your favourite OS - I have to spend a lot more time to have one ...

PS.

schnuller wrote: I like the look and feel of Win7 way more than any environment i know when using Linux, btw.

Did You know that pre-SP1 win7 have used win95/98 icons for hardware manager? whoa...

Congrats! You single handedly displayed the very thing that keeps many companies from using / adding to / donating source code to the FOSS community.
Your rambling vitriol filled rants that have absolutely no idea what you are talking about paint the OSS community in almost as bad a light as bigots and radical feminists do their respective causes. Using poor grammar, mocking nomenclature for names, and generally ranting about things you know absolutely nothing about does not help the FOSS community in any way shape or form.


As for your little GNU rant, I can port the BSD userland to Linux calls and compile it with CLANG; GNU is a convenience, not a necessity. HURD never took off because the Linux kernel has a better architecture and thus many more supporters, if you truly want HURD to take off I would recommend ditching Linux and running HURD while contributing code to bring it out of the 90's.
Admittedly I haven't looked at HURD in a long time, but I seem to remember something from a year or so ago that it FINALLY got USB ( or some other stupid common thing that Win95OSR2 had ) and was 32bit only. It's going to take a whole lot of work to get up to speed, and there is no reason to work on it since Linux already works quite well, even RMS has pretty much given up on it.

I fail to see the relation between what you quoted and what you posted.
It seem to be completely different subjects (the quote is about Windows, you seem to speak about FOSS or Linux).

What keeps companies from using it? I don't know. One reason might be the endless change. In a very short time i had to relearn: the bootloader, kde, gnome, the init system, firefox all the time, and quite some other stuff i forgot.
But in the end it is their problem, not mine. And not yours.