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What should we do about systemd?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes: 87

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edbarx
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#21 Post by edbarx »

debianxfce wrote:
edbarx wrote: ALPHA software unsuitable for a world famous distribution like Debian
https://access.redhat.com/documentation ... vices.html

Alpha software is used in customers then;-)

https://www.redhat.com/en/video-channel ... ss-stories
That wouldn't be the first or the last time. :wink: Customers are now used with inadequate software: like Android Phones losing network connection for no reason, MS Windows crashing during the nineties and early into the new millenium, Ubuntu (aka Canonical) releasing crashy OSs and user software, costly automobiles called back for faulty parts by well reknown companies, Intel's Pentium I's infamous floating point hardware bug, abuse in foodstuffs including the addition of harmful 'ingredients', etc.

There is solid historical basis that a product put on the market doesn't necessarily mean it is a gift from Utopia. My advice is to start living in the real world where imperfection/deception exists rather than phantasy.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#22 Post by golinux »

Man, that site is a mess. If that markup/design is any indication of the quality of systemd code, run as fast as you can in the other direction.
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#23 Post by tomazzi »

I know almost everything about Winblows from developer/sysadmin point of view - i was using this OS from its very beginning (win3.1, 95, ...)
If someone claims, that commercial code is somehow/magically better, then he should read this topic first:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75362
-> http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html
^ the above page is now deleted - it was showing a sorry state of MS develepment model and nasty behaviour of this company - guess why it's deleted...
...foretunatelly this in this topic some important fragments of that deleted page are cited.

Why do I mention this?
Because with systemd we are going in the same direction: corporate software. Why did systemd license have changed from GPL to LGPL? - It's clear - systemd is going to be a closed-src corporate crap - with Debian, Fedora, and other distros being used for testing - for free.

Commercial software is always broken - because freeze time is chosen by bookkeepers, not by coders, AND because coders are not interested in using the software they're writting.

Why corporations are selling broken software? - it's even simpler - corporations are selling services today - they HAVE TO sell broken software, very much like automotive industry HAVE TO sell low quality cars - to earn more and more money by selling the services.

If the software would funcion flawlessly, who would buy a hotline service/online support?
Do You think that someone ever in the history of Linux have called a servicedesk to solve a problem with sysvinit? - I bet no.

With systemd proven bugs companies will HAVE TO buy a support serivces.
And I'm not talking about the situations when systemd is used with a single harddisk, no kernel virtualization and a default desktop...

Debian is claiming to be a non-commercial distro, and while it has no human resources to provide/sell support it'll finish as a RedHat testing - like Fedora.

--------------------

Since Debian is not able to maintain utterly broken systemd code - what can be easily proved just by citing bugs history - I've voted for "Stay with sysvinit"

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#24 Post by buntunub »

The really funny thing about all this is that the Systemd people do not provide answers when pressed. They just ridicule and call the people questioning them idiots. The folks who are against Systemd being in Debian have (mostly) all provided quite clear and well reasoned position statements in quite a few places - these forums, debianusers, and the mailing lists. NOBODY has refuted any of these points. Not one person has come forward to reasonably debate or state the reasons for why Systemd needs to be adopted by Debian for the STABLE release!

I consider myself to be a fairly laid back thoughtful person. If in my research I found evidence that Systemd was a good thing for Debian and for Linux, I would not be posting here or anywhere about it. I suspect most of the folks now posting regularly against it feel the same way.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#25 Post by fleabus »

[removedby::fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 03:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#26 Post by fleabus »

buntunub wrote:I consider myself to be a fairly laid back thoughtful person. If in my research I found evidence that Systemd was a good thing for Debian and for Linux, I would not be posting here or anywhere about it. I suspect most of the folks now posting regularly against it feel the same way.
You may have something there. Throughout my life and work in computing, forum posts have only ever been a research tool for me. I only caught the posting disease when I got into Debian. :)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#27 Post by Linadian »

I chose 'b' (for uselessd) because this virus looks like it's here to stay, at least with a stripped down version of this scourge, cross-distro apps will have a better chance of being compatible. This still won't diminish my disdain for Redshat's bullying with this blob of $#1+. Check out Linus telling off a systemd developer back in April/14, he makes a lot of good points.

I now dub this blob 'virusd'. :P :twisted:

Edit: At the time of my post, if you do the math (for virusd vs something else) the votes are exactly 50/50, interesting.

Edit 2: Corrected spelling/grammar.
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-11-01 18:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#28 Post by fruitofloom »

21 votes for e), aka nothing.
Really?

To me the long lasting discussions in all kind of communication channels would be a good argument *for* debian, for the spirit i liked about it. The users simply swallowing it would be another damn good reason to leave it (not that i would need another reason, but i could get of my sad feelings).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#29 Post by Linadian »

Lennart Poettering is a slimey little douche who thinks anybody that doesn't like his bullyware is an "asshole", ZDNet quoted him (scroll down a bit). I'm all for innovation and development, just NOT having it shoved down my throat. :twisted:

Edit: The little creep spouts off about Linus too (scroll a little more to the next quote). Linus is a f$#king hero and I get his rants, he doesn't want little pukes like Poettering bullying his life's work. :twisted:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#30 Post by tomazzi »

Linadian wrote:Lennart Poettering is a slimey little douche who thinks anybody that doesn't like his bullyware is an "asshole", ZDNet quoted him (scroll down a bit). I'm all for innovation and development, just NOT having it shoved down my throat. :twisted:

Edit: The little creep spouts off about Linus too (scroll a little more to the next quote). Linus is a f$#king hero and I get his rants, he doesn't want little pukes like Poettering bullying his life's work. :twisted:
Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated - they have created a shitty software, but since they are getting paid for it, they will defend this particular solution at all costs...
Open Source community is full of a******s, and I probably more than most others am one of their most favourite targets
An Explanation: This guy have become my "most favorite target", just because he is not able to write a software - of any kind.

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#31 Post by reinob »

tomazzi wrote:Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated ...
Hey, just like you. What a coincidence! :)

Don't be a jerk, and don't be uneducated. Be technical, and objective. Deal?

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#32 Post by tomazzi »

reinob wrote:
tomazzi wrote:Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated ...
Hey, just like you. What a coincidence! :)

Don't be a jerk, and don't be uneducated. Be technical, and objective. Deal?
Here You have technical description of the most fundamental problem in systemd:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p558588

The above is my reaction on calling Open Source community peoples "a******s". That was very "technical" and "objective" - isn't it?
If You would read his responses to bugs reports, then You would quickly understand, that those "a******s" are just peoples who are pissed off due to ignorance and arrogance of this guy.

Everyone, who finds a bug, just don't undarstand that it's not a bug - it's a feature.
People, who says that systemd has important deficiencies and should not be adopted, are "a******s", who dont understand how clever and perfect systemd is.

...
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#33 Post by Linadian »

Or rename Debian?

Debhat
Redian
Poettian
Sheepian
Udebtu
Virusd

Got any more? Feel free to add to my list, lol. :mrgreen:

Edit: I like Debhat the best, it's my fave, "Remove the installation media to ensure you are booting from your new Debhat system", lol. :wink: :lol:
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-11-04 15:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#34 Post by edbarx »

I am waiting for the DDs to drop the thermonuclear bomb i.e. mandate systemd in SID.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#35 Post by golinux »

edbarx wrote:I am waiting for the DDs to drop the thermonuclear bomb i.e. mandate systemd in SID.
I assume it will have to be before the 5th freeze date, Not much time left before BOOM!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#36 Post by edbarx »

SID has been installed complete with XFCE4. systemd is installed, but it is not being used. I will wait until DDs push systemd (aka virusd) down our throats irrespective of the fact that systemd is still in its embyonic stage and will reduce Debian to the pityful state of Windows 95, 98 and ME back in the nineties and early into the new millenium!

When the Thermonuclear BOMB is dropped, I will start my final battle against systemd: if I lose, I may turn to Salix, Slackware or something along those lines. This is obviously subject to whether the DDs decide to continue offering choice of OS initialisation programs. In that event, it will be a relaxed and peaceful use of Debian.

Code: Select all

void adapt_to_systemd()
{
     bool bomb_dropped;
     while (1) {
          bomb_dropped = (check_sid_for_systemd() == 1);
          if (bomb_dropped) break;
              else continue_using_wheezy_and_jessie();
    }

     int battle_won = start_final_battle();
     if (battle_won > 0)           // it takes some time to win a battle; -1 means battle lost
         continue_using_debian();
         else install_salix_or_equivalent();
}
Added Later:
In the event of failing to workaround systemd, between two evils, the most practical choice is that of choosing the least evil of the two. This means, if moving away from Debian requires more sacrifices than gains, the 'best' option would be the choice causing the least of sacrifices.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#37 Post by Linadian »

edbarx wrote:I will wait until DDs push systemd (aka virusd) down our throats irrespective of the fact that systemd is still in its embyonic stage and will reduce Debian to the pityful state of Windows 95, 98 and ME back in the nineties and early into the new millenium!
You pretty much nailed it, Steve Ballmer once called Linux a "cancer", or was it FOSS, I forget, either way, I won't be using this Redhat/Poettering 'Medusa' (lots of tentacles/snakes to bring your whole system down), if I can't control anything, fully understand it or can't trust it completely, it does NOT stay on my machine, I don't give a $#1+ who wrote it or how many lemmings have jumped off the virusd cliff already. I can't wait for some pimply faced kid to find an exploit, then I'll be whizzing in my pants from laughing so hard. Redhat/Poettering, congrats, you're the new cancer of the Linux world, a dubious 'honour'.

From the latest openSUSE release Distrowatch package list:
• systemd-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-32bit-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-bash-completion-210-25.5.4.noarch.rpm
• systemd-logger-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-presets-branding-openSUSE-0.3.0-12.1.2.noarch.rpm
• systemd-rpm-macros-2-8.1.2.noarch.rpm
• systemd-sysvinit-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm

*puke*
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#38 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Linadian wrote:if I can't control anything, fully understand it or can't trust it completely, it does NOT stay on my machine,
Really?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#39 Post by fruitofloom »

or can't trust it ... , it does NOT stay on my machine,
Really !
I assumed that had something to do with running Linux, and for sure with running Debian.
Why else all the mess with packaging and signing and exchanging gpg-keys?

Controling it ? Depends. If i want to i think software should allow me to control it. I think that was and is the main idea of what is called *free* software. No?

Fully understand? Rather not (but then: the more a distro is like a KISS, the more easy it is to understand. I sure prefer that approach. Like: If i want to understand it, then it is rather easy than hard, as easy as possible ).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#40 Post by fleabus »

I found this relevant to my own feelings on the sysd thing (Not that good at expressing my feelings in words, always comes out wrong):

http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=4493&cid=108820
I fall on the side of the anti-systemd crowd for the very simple reason that all they are asking for is the same freedom of choice that brought most of them into the *nix world in the first place, whereas the pro-systemd crowd just seems to want everyone to be forced to use their brand new toy. No one has yet said anything on this issue that has convinced me I need to know more than that .... Choice is everything, or Linux becomes a joke to its most die-hard users and supporters. If systemd becomes an unremovable parasite on the kernel, even if it's a symbiotic parasite, those who do not wish to use it will simply flee the Linux world entirely. Can the Linux community survive losing a third or even a quarter of its developers over the next couple of years? It's an interesting question.
Now, obviously I agree right up until the part where he says he doesn't need to know any more. :) And I'm not sure that Linux is in danger of losing "a third to a quarter of its developers". I'd like to believe that those "doers" who become dissatisfied will devote their efforts to alternatives.

Re the "symbiotic parasite" thing, I am assuming a reference to the kdbus-in-the-kernel mess. Others have opined that sysd will then have "established a beachhead" in the kernel and that's the ballgame.

I'm encouraged by the efforts of edbarx, fsmithred, Void, Crux, and others trying sysd-free alternatives. I've discovered a real fondness for Slackware.
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 03:14, edited 4 times in total.
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