What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-10-31 07:51

This is Jessie with systemd removed. However, some packages depend on functions provided by systemd implying there are two packages providing these functions.
Code: Select all
rc  libsystemd-daemon0:amd64              215-5+b1                          amd64        systemd utility library (deprecated)
rc  libsystemd-journal0:amd64             208-8                             amd64        systemd journal utility library
rc  libsystemd-login0:amd64               215-5+b1                          amd64        systemd login utility library (deprecated)
ii  libsystemd0:amd64                     215-5+b1                          amd64        systemd utility library
rc  systemd                               208-8                             amd64        system and service manager
ii  systemd-shim                          8-4                               amd64        shim for systemd


I have the impression libsystemd0 is not necessary but I will have to check for that.

If anyone knows how to completely remove all components from systemd, don't hesitate to post.

Added Later:
Code: Select all
$ apt-cache policy libsystemd-daemon0
libsystemd-daemon0:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 215-5+b1
  Version table:
     215-5+b1 0
        500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
$ apt-cache policy libsystemd-journal0
libsystemd-journal0:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 215-5+b1
  Version table:
     215-5+b1 0
        500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
     208-8 0
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
$ apt-cache policy libsystemd-login0
libsystemd-login0:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 215-5+b1
  Version table:
     215-5+b1 0
        500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
$ apt-cache policy systemd
systemd:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)
  Package pin: (not found)
  Version table:
     215-5+b1 -1
        500 http://ftp2.fr.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
     208-8 -1
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-10-31 08:12

Me thinks libsystemd0 will swallow all of the other systemd libs (at least that happened in Sid)

I think:
1) ping systemd*
2) install the bsdutils by dzz
3) reinstall all apps which will get removed due to the lack of libsystemd0

1) kinda:
Package: "*systemd*"
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1
~

2) packaged by dzz (kudos):
http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-wi ... html#p4115

That's as far as i could get. Other solutions are to be found on the net.

---
As far i understood a post at debian-user, Debian per default will enable all compile flags, hence libsystemd0 too. Packages may have it as a Depends, but will work just as well with no *systemd* installed (example for me: wicd).
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-10-31 09:43

Me thinks libsystemd0 will swallow all of the other systemd libs (at least that happened in Sid)


These are the library's dependencies for Jessie:
Code: Select all
# ldd /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0
   linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007fff7b7c3000)
   librt.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 (0x00007f4faaf8f000)
   liblzma.so.5 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007f4faad6c000)
   libgcrypt.so.20 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcrypt.so.20 (0x00007f4faaa8a000)
   libresolv.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007f4faa873000)
   libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f4faa66f000)
   libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f4faa451000)
   libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007f4faa0a8000)
   /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f4fab3cf000)
   libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f4fa9e96000)


And these are the library's dependencies for SID:
Code: Select all
$ ldd libsystemd.so.0.3.1
   linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007fff17dfe000)
   librt.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 (0x00007f27c9294000)
   liblzma.so.5 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007f27c9071000)
   libgcrypt.so.20 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcrypt.so.20 (0x00007f27c8d8f000)
   libresolv.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007f27c8b78000)
   libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f27c8974000)
   libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f27c8756000)
   libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007f27c83ad000)
   /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f27c96d4000)
   libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f27c819b000)


Providing a consistent interface for packages to interface with systemd and any other services is a positive for which Debian should be encouraged rather than discouraged. Stating this doesn't do away with my criticism of systemd, as I consider systemd still ALPHA software unsuitable for a world famous distribution like Debian. I also criticize certain decisions that put undue emphasis on Gnome as a desktop, and on imagining the desktop is the only computer experience to be catered for. The reason for this position is the fact that CHOICE helps the greatest number of people to work in an environment they prefer most maximizing their concentration and output.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby PeterB » 2014-10-31 14:21

I think it is the reverse dependencies you need to investigate. Try;-

Code: Select all
apt-cache rdepends --installed libsystemd0
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby mmix » 2014-10-31 15:19

in my linux book, majority means nothing if situation gonna like this,
be systemd or not, i don't need systemd/uselessd.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-10-31 15:38

debianxfce wrote:
edbarx wrote: ALPHA software unsuitable for a world famous distribution like Debian


https://access.redhat.com/documentation ... vices.html

Alpha software is used in customers then;-)

https://www.redhat.com/en/video-channel ... ss-stories


That wouldn't be the first or the last time. :wink: Customers are now used with inadequate software: like Android Phones losing network connection for no reason, MS Windows crashing during the nineties and early into the new millenium, Ubuntu (aka Canonical) releasing crashy OSs and user software, costly automobiles called back for faulty parts by well reknown companies, Intel's Pentium I's infamous floating point hardware bug, abuse in foodstuffs including the addition of harmful 'ingredients', etc.

There is solid historical basis that a product put on the market doesn't necessarily mean it is a gift from Utopia. My advice is to start living in the real world where imperfection/deception exists rather than phantasy.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-10-31 15:40

debianxfce wrote:https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/7/html/System_Administrators_Guide/part-Infrastructure_Services.html

https://www.redhat.com/en/video-channel ... ss-stories

Man, that site is a mess. If that markup/design is any indication of the quality of systemd code, run as fast as you can in the other direction.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2014-10-31 23:03

I know almost everything about Winblows from developer/sysadmin point of view - i was using this OS from its very beginning (win3.1, 95, ...)
If someone claims, that commercial code is somehow/magically better, then he should read this topic first:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75362
-> http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html
^ the above page is now deleted - it was showing a sorry state of MS develepment model and nasty behaviour of this company - guess why it's deleted...
...foretunatelly this in this topic some important fragments of that deleted page are cited.

Why do I mention this?
Because with systemd we are going in the same direction: corporate software. Why did systemd license have changed from GPL to LGPL? - It's clear - systemd is going to be a closed-src corporate shit - with Debian, Fedora, and other distros being used for testing - for free.

Commercial software is always broken - because freeze time is chosen by bookkeepers, not by coders, AND because coders are not interested in using the software they're writting.

Why corporations are selling broken software? - it's even simpler - corporations are selling services today - they HAVE TO sell broken software, very much like automotive industry HAVE TO sell low quality cars - to earn more and more money by selling the services.

If the software would funcion flawlessly, who would buy a hotline service/online support?
Do You think that someone ever in the history of Linux have called a servicedesk to solve a problem with sysvinit? - I bet no.

With systemd proven bugs companies will HAVE TO buy a support serivces.
And I'm not talking about the situations when systemd is used with a single harddisk, no kernel virtualization and a default desktop...

Debian is claiming to be a non-commercial distro, and while it has no human resources to provide/sell support it'll finish as a RedHat testing - like Fedora.

--------------------

Since Debian is not able to maintain utterly broken systemd code - what can be easily proved just by citing bugs history - I've voted for "Stay with sysvinit"

Regards.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2014-10-31 23:23

The really funny thing about all this is that the Systemd people do not provide answers when pressed. They just ridicule and call the people questioning them idiots. The folks who are against Systemd being in Debian have (mostly) all provided quite clear and well reasoned position statements in quite a few places - these forums, debianusers, and the mailing lists. NOBODY has refuted any of these points. Not one person has come forward to reasonably debate or state the reasons for why Systemd needs to be adopted by Debian for the STABLE release!

I consider myself to be a fairly laid back thoughtful person. If in my research I found evidence that Systemd was a good thing for Debian and for Linux, I would not be posting here or anywhere about it. I suspect most of the folks now posting regularly against it feel the same way.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-10-31 23:25

[removedby::fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 03:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-10-31 23:36

buntunub wrote:I consider myself to be a fairly laid back thoughtful person. If in my research I found evidence that Systemd was a good thing for Debian and for Linux, I would not be posting here or anywhere about it. I suspect most of the folks now posting regularly against it feel the same way.

You may have something there. Throughout my life and work in computing, forum posts have only ever been a research tool for me. I only caught the posting disease when I got into Debian. :)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-01 02:26

I chose 'b' (for uselessd) because this virus looks like it's here to stay, at least with a stripped down version of this scourge, cross-distro apps will have a better chance of being compatible. This still won't diminish my disdain for Redshat's bullying with this blob of $#1+. Check out Linus telling off a systemd developer back in April/14, he makes a lot of good points.

I now dub this blob 'virusd'. :P :twisted:

Edit: At the time of my post, if you do the math (for virusd vs something else) the votes are exactly 50/50, interesting.

Edit 2: Corrected spelling/grammar.
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-11-01 18:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-01 03:43

21 votes for e), aka nothing.
Really?

To me the long lasting discussions in all kind of communication channels would be a good argument *for* debian, for the spirit i liked about it. The users simply swallowing it would be another damn good reason to leave it (not that i would need another reason, but i could get of my sad feelings).
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-01 18:05

Lennart Poettering is a slimey little douche who thinks anybody that doesn't like his bullyware is an "asshole", ZDNet quoted him (scroll down a bit). I'm all for innovation and development, just NOT having it shoved down my throat. :twisted:

Edit: The little creep spouts off about Linus too (scroll a little more to the next quote). Linus is a f$#king hero and I get his rants, he doesn't want little pukes like Poettering bullying his life's work. :twisted:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2014-11-01 22:15

Linadian wrote:Lennart Poettering is a slimey little douche who thinks anybody that doesn't like his bullyware is an "asshole", ZDNet quoted him (scroll down a bit). I'm all for innovation and development, just NOT having it shoved down my throat. :twisted:

Edit: The little creep spouts off about Linus too (scroll a little more to the next quote). Linus is a f$#king hero and I get his rants, he doesn't want little pukes like Poettering bullying his life's work. :twisted:


Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated - they have created a shitty software, but since they are getting paid for it, they will defend this particular solution at all costs...

Open Source community is full of a******s, and I probably more than most others am one of their most favourite targets


An Explanation: This guy have become my "most favorite target", just because he is not able to write a software - of any kind.

Regards.
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