What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-12 22:49

You should put Machiavelli on your reading list, too. "Il principe" is quite short and very enlightening in an unsettling way.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2014-11-12 23:43

fruitofloom wrote:dilbert, regarding your post above, ontopic. Round the lines of "the benefit of doubt" for debian.
It doesn't look as if all DD's would share that view. Look at the actual "discussions" in debian-vote, also the logs of IRC-chat.

What i try to say is something like this:
I really think this whole problem is something big.
It is a technical change you can't compare with the change of, say, gnome2 to 3, or kde3.5 to 5. But i think it may (may!) result in a social change in the debian project too.
One can still say one will go on to use Debian. That is not my point. But i said it already above: "Don't worry, just trolls" I don't think that is the case (you didn't say it, but some make it sound like that).

I tend to make things sound dramatic. It might well be me. Just saying how it looks like to me.

I have seen some of it and yes it is concerning, and yes not everyone agrees, and yes some are getting riled enough to leave, which is bad.
I can't compare it to previous disagreements within the project so it may be better or worse than what has happened before, I don't know, the outcome will be enlightening.
I agree that the "just trolls" argument is false, but it is a very easy one to make and evidence for it is plenty.
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby mmix » 2014-11-13 00:19

here is another "systemd"

Systemd-resolved DNS cache poisoning
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8595335

and here

[systemd-devel] [RFC 00/12] Bugfixes for CONFIG_VT=n
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 14808.html

do you see their direction?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-13 07:51

systemd is becomming more and more absurd.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-13 13:05

[removed by fleabus]
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-13 13:21

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
fruitofloom wrote: ...
I agree that the "just trolls" argument is false, but it is a very easy one to make and evidence for it is plenty.

Oh yes. Evidence is plenty.


As far i can tell: previous disagreement, you could work around. This one is really down your throat (as of yet, of course). There is no option but leaving (for the ones who ... you got it).

If, say, a 100 hundred devs decide to go for a new distro, or to give a hand in an existing one, then i can see a shiny future. As of now that ois the best i can dream of (regarding what some call Linux, else i still dream of "airs" and "handplants" and i carve through the pool as if i were still 17, like a mad dog, that is. Succeeded in a drop-in on a 2 meter miniramp the other night. Whew ... ).

iow: To me, now and here, Linux doesn't say much anymore. It opens a webbrowser, and thats about it (just like any other OS out there). Else it is an option to speak/learn English.

------------------------
the outcome will be enlightening.

We agree on that one too (was clear already, huh?).
Give me convenience or give me death.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-13 14:12

fruitofloom wrote:If, say, a 100 hundred devs decide to go for a new distro, or to give a hand in an existing one, then i can see a shiny future.

My own fondest hope. Well. That is to say I agree completely with dilberts re "Debian goodness" and that fondest hope would center around a future Debian based solution/spinoff that could safely use Debian repos without the worry of assimilation. Yes, that's already possible. A bit hacky, must be carefully watched, but it's early yet. And perhaps I'm talking totally out the wrong end.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-13 16:36

Sure, a solution *inside* of Debian would be way better.
I had in mind "worst case scenario".

I mainly said that as i really can't see much outcome in what people call "a fork". I doubt they realize what they are speaking of.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-13 18:39

See this post for a quote from Dragora's Wiki, oh the irony. :?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-13 23:22

fruitofloom wrote:.... can't see much outcome in what people call "a fork". I doubt they realize what they are speaking of.

You're right about that, a true fork of the entire system would be a gargantuan undertaking.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby mmix » 2014-11-14 22:44

http://www.shrubbery.net/jokes/MtXinu42poster.jpg

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/static/docs/taoup.pdf
The lesson for the future is that
over-committing to any one technology or business model would be a mistake — and maintaining
the adaptive flexibility of our software and the design tradition that goes with it is correspondingly
imperative.
Last edited by mmix on 2014-11-15 01:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2014-11-14 22:54

I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd. When the Systemd proponents claim that the Systemd opponents are nothing but trolls and crackpots, it is posts precisely like these that they are referring to, and give them fuel. Stop it!

We have already uncermoniously removed one troll from our midst on the other forum, and we will proactively remove more, if need be. Our cause is too important to risk to people who have no clue on how to post or understand netiket.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-11-14 23:09

buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.

Agreed. Easily nuked with AdBlock.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-15 12:11

buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.

Probably meant as light humour. The posting of crude cartoons with captions has been a popular response to unpopular policies since the time of Hogarth in the UK. I accept the practice may be culturally specific. I have replaced my image of Krapp recording his last tape with a much smaller one.

buntunub wrote: When the Systemd proponents claim that the Systemd opponents are nothing but trolls and crackpots, it is posts precisely like these that they are referring to, and give them fuel. Stop it!

I suspect it is more the perhaps overheated *words* that some people post that fit into the narrative being constructed around 'enterprise' and 'modernity' and 'standardisation' that allow the more vigorous proponents of radical change in Linux to label *all* of those who oppose them as Luddites or loonies. But I shall comply.

Back on topic: what will I do about systemd? Not a lot. I shall continue to run Sid, I shall experiment with systemd-shim and post what I hope will be useful bug reports. I shall revisit the 'old-school' desktop when Jessie goes stable - dwm works surprisingly well on a small laptop screen. I shall continue to run another distribution of GNU/Linux on the typing box as I always have. Debian Developers will continue to 'discuss' systemd, wayland, desktop integration, and the need to syncronise release dates with major upstream components. The sun will shine as much as it can reasonably be expected to at 52.5 degrees North in November.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby swirler » 2014-11-15 12:36

I've voted for just keep using sysvinit regardless of its alleged limitations as my first choice,realistically hoping that in the meantime a realiable version of uselessd is developed,in line with the standards of efficiency and transparency in Debian.
Truth to tell,I don't t really understand these technical matters,yet based on what little I've read I don't trust systemd,it goes against the basic principle of not substituting something simple that just works with something complex that does many things at once.
We know what these complex processes can (eventually) be exploited for.
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