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What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes: 87

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fruitofloom
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#91 Post by fruitofloom »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
Linadian wrote: At the time of this post, 34 against/something other than virusd and 32 for its implementation. Judging by the results, approximately 25% of Debian users will be jumping ship, that's a quarter of the user base.
Really?
Looks like (almost) 25% of respondents to THIS poll on THIS forum profess to be considering leaving Debian.
I would be very surprised if that is representative of the Debian user base as a whole.
Of course it is impossible to prove how many will leave due to systemd.
For many reasons (one being that people might leave, but others might join).

But if one is looking at forums and mailing lists and IRC channels of all kind, then it looks a lot as if it would be quite a few who leave Debian (or are planning to leave it in the future).
For example look out for: "Hi there, ex-Debian user, got a short question ..."
Another example, look at debian IRC channels. "Dead" is an exaggeration.

What matters more is the quality, not the quantity of the people who will leave (have left already).
Looking at that, any communication channel you want, .... oh my ****** god. What the heck has happened to Debian? Is it a social network now?


At the end of the day the only thing which matters to me is what i am doing (in this case: what i have done).

Short version: From what i read to me it looks as if 25% leaving sounds possible. Make it 15 % or 30%, if it makes you happy.


------------
FWIW, my sid install on my laptop is running as well as ever.
Mine too. All of them (until i replaced them with other OS'es, of course)
That is not the point.
"Hey, folks, there is one user to be found where package xyz works, in Sid. Let's make it default for Debian stable and remove all alternatives"
That is the Debian way of doing things? Really ?

--------------------
And, again FWIW, I don't get a choice of which glibc to use either - along with pretty much every other linux, Debian has "forced libc6 down my throat".
Yes, if you are using a GNU operating system then GNU will, obviously, be forced down your throad. And if you use a GNU/Linux system, then you can add the Linux kernel to that attack too.
Not that smart an argument, no need to repeat it (yes, i have read it too, like all others. Less smart posting/repeating it here than you might have assumed).
I expect more from someone like you. That really is close to insulting your own intelligence (and the one of the readers. A few are not idiots. At least keep them in mind when writing something).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#92 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

fruitofloom wrote:What matters more is the quality, not the quantity of the people who will leave (have left already).
Indeed. Joey Hess being a prime recent example (and yes I know who else you mean as well).
At the end of the day the only thing which matters to me is what i am doing
In this we agree entirely, and my previous post was framed on what I currently intend to "do" about systemd (as per the topic and poll) coming to Debian and what that entails for the systems I run.
Short version: From what i read to me it looks as if 25% leaving sounds possible. Make it 15 % or 30%, if it makes you happy.
Again, that proportion would surprise me, but guessing numbers is pointless - it will be what it will be.
FWIW, my sid install on my laptop is running as well as ever.
Mine too. All of them (until i replaced them with other OS'es, of course)
That is not the point.
Well that is exactly the point of my answer to the question.
I want my systems to work as well as possible at what they do going forward, and in my current opinion, Debian still provides a huge number of advantages for me over the alternatives.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of systemd, and some of the consequences of what is going on are cause for caution and concern.
That is the Debian way of doing things? Really ?
If you're talking about the politics and arguing, then probably yes :)
-------------
And, again FWIW, I don't get a choice of which glibc to use either - along with pretty much every other linux, Debian has "forced libc6 down my throat".
Yes, if you are using a GNU operating system then GNU will, obviously, be forced down your throad. And if you use a GNU/Linux system, then you can add the Linux kernel to that attack too.
Not that smart an argument, no need to repeat it (yes, i have read it too, like all others. Less smart posting/repeating it here than you might have assumed).
I expect more from someone like you. That really is close to insulting your own intelligence (and the one of the readers. A few are not idiots. At least keep them in mind when writing something).
edit: I don't recall reading that particular analogy before, but I must confess that all the systemd threads end up looking pretty much the same most of the time and I tend to 'glaze over' occasionally....

Admittedly, it is a poor satire of the hyperbole spouted by some, but my point is that at certain points in history choices have been made by all distributions for one 'system' over another, sometimes controversially and sometimes not the most technically advantageous for all, but there is a value in having a "standard".
There seem to be a good number of Debian devs committed to preserving choice of inits in Debian (and that is a VERY GOOD THING), but at the end of the day, they cannot control upstreams (although influence is separate matter) and can only do so much work to integrate divergent code.
My guess is that systemd will be avoidable in Debian for those that want to choose their packages carefully.

If code-allergy gets too much, of course there are other options as per your "other options" thread :)
But for me that also means doing without all of the Debian goodness I've come to know and love.

Also, to labour a point, the code is all still there - there is nothing stopping any one or group from building and distributing (and maintaining) any system they want, just that a lot of the people *currently* writing and maintaining and packaging and distributing are moving the systemd way (whether that is good or bad in the long term, history will judge, and no doubt, further decisions will be made).
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#93 Post by fruitofloom »

Thanks for your elaborate answer.
Got your point better now, i hope.

I can understand the reasoning of people who stick to Debian. Well: a certain way of reasoning. Simply ignoring the "problem" ... i can't understand that.
Perhaps my time with Debian was over anyway, and i just took the chance?
I simply don't know. All that confused me, and the more i think about it, the more it confuses me (doesn't look like what i had in mind when speaking of Debian anymore).

I read the glibc argument quite a lot. Didn't know you didn't. Sorry
(Still it doesn't make any sense to me ... but then: I barely know what libc is ... no kidding ... lol).

I should stop posting about the subject. I agree with most threads ending nowhere (and me repeating all the time that it is time to leave debian is getting old too).

It might well be that in the (long) end the outcome will be something really new, really fresh (hurd comes to mind). Linux sure did get old (funny enough by lots of teenagers now using it ... :-) ).

Keep it up, have fun, this way or the other.
Give me convenience or give me death.

NathaelPajani
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#94 Post by NathaelPajani »

Hi guys,

I saw the survey at the beginning of this thread (even filled it), but this survey requires login to the forum.
Thus it's not very representative.

I've created an online survey, with no login.
I know it can be abused. I ask users not to do so ... even if my survey results won't be much more representative than this one in the end ... the goal is more to tell debian developers that there are people caring about what they do.

I also ask people to tell how many machines are concerned by their vote.

Here is the link to the survey : http://framadate.org/shrov71cur7xvsks

Share it :)
Thanks.

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Linadian
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#95 Post by Linadian »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
Linadian wrote: At the time of this post, 34 against/something other than virusd and 32 for its implementation. Judging by the results, approximately 25% of Debian users will be jumping ship, that's a quarter of the user base.
Really?
Looks like (almost) 25% of respondents to THIS poll on THIS forum profess to be considering leaving Debian.
I would be very surprised if that is representative of the Debian user base as a whole.

For mine, the Debian project gets the benefit of the doubt, based on past experience, and I remain to be convinced that the world is coming to an end.

As always, new releases will get extensive testing prior to migration of my servers, but I'm not expecting a whole lot of drama from the stable upgrades.

FWIW, my sid install on my laptop is running as well as ever.

And, again FWIW, I don't get a choice of which glibc to use either - along with pretty much every other linux, Debian has "forced libc6 down my throat". I wonder if Ulrich Drepper is an arrogant prick?

edit: I hope you're not using ReiserFS :)
You can back peddle, whitewash, Jim Jones, puppies, rainbows and unicorns all you want, when the smoke clears, it's still a BETA proprietary blob that has too much control over one's system and will be forced on people, like I said in a different post, make meta-packages, that way people can uninstall it if they want, but oh, wait, devs are supposed to write typical everyday apps around dictatord. If I wanted this kind of $#1+, I would have stayed with Windows, f#%k Redhat and f#%k Poettering. I'm already testing Salix on my old machine, I should be switched long before your NSA-ware Debhat "hits the servers".

And FYI, most polls are correct to +/- 5%, so yeah, judging by that unofficial, unscientific poll, you will be lose a lot of users. Just rename Debian to Redbuntian and get it over with. :P
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#96 Post by reinob »

Linadian wrote:You can back peddle, whitewash, Jim Jones, puppies, rainbows and unicorns all you want, when the smoke clears, it's still a BETA proprietary blob that has too much control over one's system and will be forced on people, like I said in a different post, make meta-packages, that way people can uninstall it if they want, but oh, wait, devs are supposed to write typical everyday apps around dictatord. If I wanted this kind of $#1+, I would have stayed with Windows, f#%k Redhat and f#%k Poettering. I'm already testing Salix on my old machine, I should be switched long before your NSA-ware Debhat "hits the servers".

And FYI, most polls are correct to +/- 5%, so yeah, judging by that unofficial, unscientific poll, you will be lose a lot of users. Just rename Debian to Redbuntian and get it over with. :P
Glad you're moving somewhere else. You won't be missed.

twoflowers

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#97 Post by twoflowers »

Don't forget: "The last one should turn off the light"

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Linadian
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#98 Post by Linadian »

reinob wrote:
Linadian wrote:You can back peddle, whitewash, Jim Jones, puppies, rainbows and unicorns all you want, when the smoke clears, it's still a BETA proprietary blob that has too much control over one's system and will be forced on people, like I said in a different post, make meta-packages, that way people can uninstall it if they want, but oh, wait, devs are supposed to write typical everyday apps around dictatord. If I wanted this kind of $#1+, I would have stayed with Windows, f#%k Redhat and f#%k Poettering. I'm already testing Salix on my old machine, I should be switched long before your NSA-ware Debhat "hits the servers".

And FYI, most polls are correct to +/- 5%, so yeah, judging by that unofficial, unscientific poll, you will be lose a lot of users. Just rename Debian to Redbuntian and get it over with. :P
Glad you're moving somewhere else. You won't be missed.
Is that supposed to hurt my feelings? edbarx is right, you're a sad, pathetic little troll. You're lashing out because you lack the brains to use something other than a virusd laced distro, awe. You do realize virusd has the potential for exploits and complete remote control of your machine right (read up idiot, it controls your networking, duh)? Enjoy the NSA and/or wiped drive, lol. You seriously need to get a brain before trying to mess with people. :roll: :P :lol:

You can always use your Windows when Redhat pulls a future patent stunt. I haven't used Windows in years and don't plan on going back. You're weak. :roll:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#99 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Enough with the personal attacks from everybody please.

Keep it on topic (poll choice and your reasons therefore) and at least try to make sense.
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fruitofloom
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#100 Post by fruitofloom »

just started to sound like fun, and now it is spoiled ... what a pity.
try to make sense
After 40 years of utter nonsense i won't start with it ...

Image
^^ make an educated guess ...
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#101 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

:lol:
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#102 Post by fruitofloom »

:-)


The people who still hunt for "personal atttacks" might want to head over to debian-vote.
It get's better from day to day ...
Re: "done with consensus decisionmaking", "war", "rearguard battles" [was: Re: REISSUED CfV: General Resolution: Init system coupling]
Gotta love debian.
A pity the forum doesn't reflect that (anymore ...).
At least one doesn't get banned here, one only dies, due to boredom ...
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#103 Post by fruitofloom »

dilbert, regarding your post above, ontopic. Round the lines of "the benefit of doubt" for debian.
It doesn't look as if all DD's would share that view. Look at the actual "discussions" in debian-vote, also the logs of IRC-chat.

What i try to say is something like this:
I really think this whole problem is something big.
It is a technical change you can't compare with the change of, say, gnome2 to 3, or kde3.5 to 5. But i think it may (may!) result in a social change in the debian project too.
One can still say one will go on to use Debian. That is not my point. But i said it already above: "Don't worry, just trolls" I don't think that is the case (you didn't say it, but some make it sound like that).

I tend to make things sound dramatic. It might well be me. Just saying how it looks like to me.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#104 Post by keithpeter »

fruitofloom wrote:What i try to say is something like this:
I really think this whole problem is something big.
It is a technical change you can't compare with the change of, say, gnome2 to 3, or kde3.5 to 5. But i think it may (may!) result in a social change in the debian project too.
Yup. I've gone from punched cards to laptops via minicomputers the size of a fridge and beige boxes with CRT monitors. Its the software that governs it all. And software = structure. Both technically and socially. Marx would have loved it (Grundrisse rather than Das Kapital). Means of production governs consiousness &c.
fruitofloom wrote:just started to sound like fun, and now it is spoiled ... what a pity.
try to make sense
After 40 years of utter nonsense i won't start with it ...
Image
^^ make an educated guess ...
Feels more like...

Image

...sometimes.

{Spent most of today working with designers half my age to make some elearning materials for people about 10 years younger than them. High bandwidth. Fun. You know, why we have computers in the first place... :twisted:}

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00296.html

Seems sensible...
Last edited by keithpeter on 2014-11-15 11:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#105 Post by fruitofloom »

That photo indeed is much more like it.
I'm rolling on the floor.
(roling or rolling, who cares, when we can't even speak of left and right under such circumstances ...).

Regarding Marx and his writings: I read Adorno, assumed to understand him i'd need to read Marx, assumed to understand him i'd need to read Hegel, assumed ... gotta read Kant. Long story short: i never read Marx, as i got stuck with Hegel. I got his main ideas, and agree, but i didn't read him. If you didn't read him i can highly recommend Adorno. The bad news: the best part will get lost in translations. He was an outstanding writer.

To get slightly back on topic:
I can get mad and overly dramatic. But i really wish the very best for Debian. And i sure won't forget what it did for me (both: social and technically). At the end of the day it still is an outstanding interesting project (and, let's not forget that, tons of sub-projects inside of it).


-
I missed to click on the link to debian-vote you gave.
Just one word from me: Wow.
Give me convenience or give me death.

twoflowers

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#106 Post by twoflowers »

You should put Machiavelli on your reading list, too. "Il principe" is quite short and very enlightening in an unsettling way.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#107 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

fruitofloom wrote:dilbert, regarding your post above, ontopic. Round the lines of "the benefit of doubt" for debian.
It doesn't look as if all DD's would share that view. Look at the actual "discussions" in debian-vote, also the logs of IRC-chat.

What i try to say is something like this:
I really think this whole problem is something big.
It is a technical change you can't compare with the change of, say, gnome2 to 3, or kde3.5 to 5. But i think it may (may!) result in a social change in the debian project too.
One can still say one will go on to use Debian. That is not my point. But i said it already above: "Don't worry, just trolls" I don't think that is the case (you didn't say it, but some make it sound like that).

I tend to make things sound dramatic. It might well be me. Just saying how it looks like to me.
I have seen some of it and yes it is concerning, and yes not everyone agrees, and yes some are getting riled enough to leave, which is bad.
I can't compare it to previous disagreements within the project so it may be better or worse than what has happened before, I don't know, the outcome will be enlightening.
I agree that the "just trolls" argument is false, but it is a very easy one to make and evidence for it is plenty.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#108 Post by mmix »

here is another "systemd"

Systemd-resolved DNS cache poisoning
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8595335

and here

[systemd-devel] [RFC 00/12] Bugfixes for CONFIG_VT=n
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 14808.html

do you see their direction?

twoflowers

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#109 Post by twoflowers »

systemd is becomming more and more absurd.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#110 Post by fleabus »

[removed by fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 00:52, edited 2 times in total.
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