What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-17 16:13

thanatos_incarnate wrote:
keithpeter wrote:2) I *think* it may be possible and technically desirable to deliver a 'just works' desktop or server a) without using abstraction upon abstraction and b) using core components with well defined interfaces that c) will work with other core components of differing versions thus giving distributions freedom to mix and match.

Forgive me, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, but Isn't that the systemd approach?
A unification of things like all those daemons (hal, etc.) into the init system and sending those
calls directly to the kernel which has already evolved into being able to cover all those needs?
And it's also relatively modular, i.e. components can be enabled/disabled at compilation.

The systemd wider project calls for components to be lockstepped in each version and each version in future be tied to a specific version of the kernel. Upgrade one piece, upgrade the lot. My understanding is that the systemd api is also still under rapid development, so interfaces between components changing with each version with little in the way of a roadmap available.

I'm sure it will always work, and work well, within a given version, so Jessie release, and Jessie+N release will always work. May be implications for what you can put in a release though. And when you can make a release. See where that is going? Not intentional, just an inevitable side effect of the architechture.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-17 17:20

LOL ... good point :mrgreen:
I can just speak for myself: It's a nuicance to get functionality that A provides wrapped in a layer of B and then be told that's cool. It's not, it simply bad design. Same goes for the "debig" kernelcommand. Hijacking functionality is not cool, it's stupid. And from there on a tree of consequences branches, including "breaks unix philosophy", "violates KISS" and probably "tries to cirvumvent GPL" are the easiest.
And "providing buildingblocks for an OS" is the worst of all: I already have an OS, what would i want virusd for? Playing LEGO with my OS?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-17 17:26

[removed by fleabus, redundant]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-24 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2014-11-18 01:20

thanatos_incarnate wrote:But feel free to keep me in the dark, that way I will surely be convinced of your way. :lol:


Nobody convinced me one way or the other in deciding to fight against Debians decision to foist Systemd on the next stable release. I came to that decision after a long bout of searching the net and reading the Systemd docs, as well as sifting through all the various blogs and forum posts about it on a whole host of websites and Distro specific entries. This is how it works. You have A LOT of reading to catch up on!

In the beginning I was as incrudulous as anyone that a piece of software could get anyone up in arms. Education has taught me the why, and reading the tech news and email lists on Systemd keeps me informed. While it is easy enough to find outraged posts, it is harder to find educated threads that really discuss the matter deliberately and calmly. You will find the same common threads:

0. Systemd breaks POSIX and is incompatible with the BSDs. That is not good in regards to Debian, which claims to be the Universal OS, and runs counter to the open arms ideology Debian has always espoused.

1. Systemd has become monolithic. Too many dependancies create lockin. The code has become obfuscated and only a core cadre of devs really know whats going on. Sure, it is open source. Feel free to read through the thousands of lines of code to try to figure it out!

2. The most egregious is that one cannot run an alternate init system, such as SysV, OpenRC, or Upstart. So what? This runs counter to Debians Social Contract, which clearly states that the needs of its USERS come first. What if I don't want to run Systemd? A whole lot of folks don't want to run Systemd. So its tough luck for us! Use it or leave! Debian is an exclusive club now, or so the Debian Devs say on the mailing list, if you read it. But for Jessie, and probably only Jessie, alternate init may be possible thanks to a small handful of Devs who care about this stuff.

3. Systemd functions as a Windows-style svchost. Give a google on that to find out the obvious attack potential and exploitability of such a massive attack surface. Microsoft has been dealing with that for the last decade or more. Now, it's our turn!

4. The Systemd devs are "my way or F!ck Y$u"! Due to the dependancy lockin of a larger and larger core system component spread that are now tied to Systemd, nobody has a choice anymore. We all are now at the mercy of Lennart Poetering and his ilk. He has a growing number of major Distros all at his mercy. He has virtually all major upstream projects as a result by the throat. Why is that? As I said before, the fact that all major distros are locked into Systemd, and that Systemd has a huge number of dependant core functions, virtually every piece of software will have to tie-in to Systemd to work at all.

Above are just a tiny few reasons. I did not mention the UNIX model, because I am not that interested in it, although it does make a whole lot of sense. There are many more reasons. The only real way to find out which side you are on is to search and find out for yourself.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-18 02:44

buntunub wrote:
thanatos_incarnate wrote:But feel free to keep me in the dark, that way I will surely be convinced of your way. :lol:


Nobody convinced me one way or the other in deciding to fight against Debians decision to foist Systemd on the next stable release. I came to that decision after a long bout of searching the net and reading the Systemd docs, as well as sifting through all the various blogs and forum posts about it on a whole host of websites and Distro specific entries. This is how it works. You have A LOT of reading to catch up on!

In the beginning I was as incrudulous as anyone that a piece of software could get anyone up in arms. Education has taught me the why, and reading the tech news and email lists on Systemd keeps me informed. While it is easy enough to find outraged posts, it is harder to find educated threads that really discuss the matter deliberately and calmly. You will find the same common threads:

0. Systemd breaks POSIX and is incompatible with the BSDs. That is not good in regards to Debian, which claims to be the Universal OS, and runs counter to the open arms ideology Debian has always espoused.

1. Systemd has become monolithic. Too many dependancies create lockin. The code has become obfuscated and only a core cadre of devs really know whats going on. Sure, it is open source. Feel free to read through the thousands of lines of code to try to figure it out!

2. The most egregious is that one cannot run an alternate init system, such as SysV, OpenRC, or Upstart. So what? This runs counter to Debians Social Contract, which clearly states that the needs of its USERS come first. What if I don't want to run Systemd? A whole lot of folks don't want to run Systemd. So its tough luck for us! Use it or leave! Debian is an exclusive club now, or so the Debian Devs say on the mailing list, if you read it. But for Jessie, and probably only Jessie, alternate init may be possible thanks to a small handful of Devs who care about this stuff.

3. Systemd functions as a Windows-style svchost. Give a google on that to find out the obvious attack potential and exploitability of such a massive attack surface. Microsoft has been dealing with that for the last decade or more. Now, it's our turn!

4. The Systemd devs are "my way or F!ck Y$u"! Due to the dependancy lockin of a larger and larger core system component spread that are now tied to Systemd, nobody has a choice anymore. We all are now at the mercy of Lennart Poetering and his ilk. He has a growing number of major Distros all at his mercy. He has virtually all major upstream projects as a result by the throat. Why is that? As I said before, the fact that all major distros are locked into Systemd, and that Systemd has a huge number of dependant core functions, virtually every piece of software will have to tie-in to Systemd to work at all.

Above are just a tiny few reasons. I did not mention the UNIX model, because I am not that interested in it, although it does make a whole lot of sense. There are many more reasons. The only real way to find out which side you are on is to search and find out for yourself.

*standing applause*, and lots of it. :!: 8) I already suggested Debdows as a new name for Debian, rather fitting. My personal fave is Debhat.

Edit: Has anybody seen this yet (General Resolution: init system coupling)? There may be hope afterall, I'm not holding my breath though, the Poetthat oligarchy is like a slime blob 'B' movie, smothering everything.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby kereberos » 2014-11-18 09:39

As long as there is another option to use for me personally C is the solution, on my own servers and workstations of course.
I administrate over 200 debian servers which range from version 3 to the latest wheezy. The clients couldn't care less about what type of linux, kernel or init system is running on all these but I'm glad to be working with Debians only not like RHEL, Suse, Centos and their kind of windows mutant systems running on linux kernels.

Although I love the phylosophy behind Slack and Gentoo, they are just way too time consuming to manage (even for personal use) and you will never encounter them in work anyway. If I need a samba server, sogo, tomcat, dns, apache just apt-get install em.


As RMS said open source is a mixture of captitalsit ideas and anarchist ideas. This is why regardless so many people like me are against systemd, none of us can stop this cancer from spreading in the unix community. Pottering should've been put to work in the mines in Africa for the rest of his life instead of causing more damage to the open source community.

As much as I would love if systemd would never happend, I pretty much just going to handle machines I encounter with systemd like the previously mentioned "clicking crap" OS-es which require you to be RHCE monkey certified for clicking. Log in there, do the job with the ugliest and laziest workaround you can and then log out and don't touch that system again.

Uselessd probably going to be the long term solution because even if we have a choice of the init system, more and more gnome apps will depend on systemd's libraries. Even now regardless that I use fluxbox (20mb), I have to endure that 1.2Gb of crap libraries pulled in from gnome just to have some gtk apps running.

Code: Select all
debi64 test # /etc/init.d/samba stop << Nothing happens ...
debi64 test # ps aux |grep smb
root      3004  0.0  0.3 272700  7772 ?        Ss   10:16   0:00 smbd -F
root      3006  0.0  0.1 272700  3240 ?        S    10:16   0:00 smbd -F
root      3023  0.0  0.0  12000   924 pts/4    S+   10:16   0:00 grep --colour=auto smb
debi64 test # killall -9 smbd
debi64 test # dmesg -T | tail -5
[Die Nov 18 08:54:47 2014] hda-intel: IRQ timing workaround is activated for card #0. Suggest a bigger bdl_pos_adj.
[Die Nov 18 10:16:22 2014] init: smbd main process (772) killed by KILL signal
[Die Nov 18 10:16:22 2014] init: smbd main process ended, respawning


A big middle finger for h. potter, but I'm sure he will never come to this forum because such a cretin cannot come from the Debian community, he must be a SuSe fan.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-18 11:09

kereberos wrote:I administrate over 200 debian servers which range from version 3 to the latest wheezy. The clients couldn't care less about what type of linux, kernel or init system is running on all these...

Red Hat have probably worked out the same thing. Hence their strategy involving a more monolithic 'middleware' (the bit between the kernel and userland). As user mor might say, your clients are not really interested in the *freedom* of what they run, so they get what Red Hat, Oracle and Suse chuck over the wall.

http://www.microlinux.fr/mled.php

This chap does slackware based desktop/servers for small businesses in France. He posts quite often in the slackware forums.

kereberos wrote:Even now regardless that I use fluxbox (20mb), I have to endure that 1.2Gb of crap libraries pulled in from gnome just to have some gtk apps running.

Which gtk apps bring in what sounds like most of Gnome? So I can avoid them :twisted:. I use IceWM, XDM, see sig.

PS: the language used in the last few posts could be quoted by those in favour of the more radical parts of the systemd project and used to paint you all as tinfoil hat wearing old greybeards grumbling into your coffee. Think about it.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-18 21:09

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2014-11-18 22:17

Linadian wrote:The ships are leaving the rats, lol. :shock: :wink: :lol:

I can't see anything funny in those links - for me, it's a sign of incoming disaster...
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-18 22:24

Yes... No matter how I may personally feel, those folks who manage and maintain the project have a pretty rough road all the way around these days, and I can't help but feel for them all, and for the project as a whole.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-11-18 22:25

tomazzi wrote:
Linadian wrote:The ships are leaving the rats, lol. :shock: :wink: :lol:

I can't see anything funny in those links - for me, it's a sign of incoming disaster...

I prefer to think of it as a wakeup call.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-18 22:28

[removed by fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-24 23:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-18 22:33

I have the bad feeling that the DDs who are leaving are those who support choice, and that would be bad.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-11-18 22:37

Debiapocalypse
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