What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-15 13:01

keithpeter wrote:
buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.

Probably meant as light humour. The posting of crude cartoons with captions has been a popular response to unpopular policies since the time of Hogarth in the UK.

Didn't know of Hogarth and such.
Back then, when the new staff was introduced and started to ban users, censor, edit posts and remove posts, each second post contained pointless images, 4-chan-like.
Ain't even close to that, the 5 or 6 pictures which have been posted (and mmx sure didn't post several).

I can't see an important cause.
People getting murdered by a drone (in the end by Obama) is a seriuous cause, in my book.

Besides that everything regarding systemd and the possible solutions has already been said. And it has been said a dozen times.
No need to keep on saying it. Either make the according change or don't, but stay sersious? Of what use might that be?
(as if anyone would care what random people in a random forum have to say).

Let me quote Zappa:
Does humor belong in computing

(nah, he didn't say computing).

--------------
swirler:
if you like have a look at refracta:
http://refracta.freeforums.org/proto-re ... -t440.html
might be they will get it sorted for jessie-stable.
Give me convenience or give me death.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-17 05:01

If these links have been posted in this thread already, I apologize in advance (I really didn't want to scour all 9 pages to find out), I just think they might be some good reading on the subject. Make no mistake, I am still very much against poetthatd (virusd, systemd, same thing), and I'll be switching to either Debian kfreebsd or any other non-virusd distro (see this thread courtesy of fruitofloom). iTWire Story about why Debian is dumping the kfreebsd port because of virusd here (but Debian welcomes devs to maintain a non-official port, gee, go figure).

Debian's rationale for using virusd here.

I'll save you the reading if your eyes are sore or you don't like reading long fluffy bologna, my bs decoder ring says "because other lemmings have jumped off the cliff, we're following them, wheeeeeeeee, because we're sheeples like dat". :wink: :lol:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2014-11-17 06:32

Linadian wrote:If these links have been posted in this thread already, I apologize in advance (I really didn't want to scour all 9 pages to find out), I just think they might be some good reading on the subject. Make no mistake, I am still very much against poetthatd (virusd, systemd, same thing), and I'll be switching to either Debian kfreebsd or any other non-virusd distro (see this thread courtesy of fruitofloom). iTWire Story about why Debian is dumping the kfreebsd port because of virusd here (but Debian welcomes devs to maintain a non-official port, gee, go figure).

Debian's rationale for using virusd here.

I'll save you the reading if your eyes are sore or you don't like reading long fluffy bologna, my bs decoder ring says "because other lemmings have jumped off the cliff, we're following them, wheeeeeeeee, because we're sheeples like dat". :wink: :lol:


Nice. Debian is making the move to Systemd preemptively because some people on the board believe that it is the smart thing to do to stay with the trends in the general marketplace, so to speak. What that really means is that there is very strong Corporate influence pulling the strings. Not just for Debian, but for all the major Distros. This is what the money machines want, and Linux provides a damned attractive (read free as in there are no licensing fees; just setup/maintenance costs) for the big moneyed interests. Red Hat is already paving the way and has been for quite a long time now. So there's that. And then there are the silent majority of Linux users who just want a damned free system that works likes Windows. Not in the proprietary sense, but they want something that, "just works". Well, "just works" has a heavy price tag that comes with it. "Just works" means that users don't want to have to think about anything or futz with any command line doohicky. They just want to install their free Linux thingy and be done with it, and then work or play games on it. This is what A LOT of people have been crying crocodile tears about for longer than I have been using Linux.

And so here we are. The future of Linux. There is a definite parallel with trends in the real world as well. It has been said that, "Freedom dies to thundrous applause". I think there is a strong ring of truth to that statement and we are watching it play out right in front of our eyes now.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 09:35

So, I've been keeping away from this discussion since it has started, but I will just quickly give my impressions
of a newly installed Debian Jessie system with systemd, slim login manager, openbox and a few programmes and scripts.
This is a notebook used as an all-around-desktop machine.
I usually choose stability over fresh packages, meaning that I'd have removed this system if it had even the smallest annoying bugs.

* Things work as they did before (settings, personal bash scripts, etc.)
* I can still do all the command line doohicky as someone here named it
* The programmes aren't faster or slower as on Wheezy, but I appreciate the new versions
* The system boots/shuts down/sleeps/resumes much faster than before
* Fewer bugs than a similar custom set up on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS (!)
* I had to adjust a few scripts that have to do with shutdown/restart/suspend/hibernate
* It's still all open source and DFSG
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-17 09:37

@buntunub: A couple of remarks...

1) Redhat rather like their licencing fees I think, as do Oracle. The Money Machines have to actually make some money!

2) I *think* it may be possible and technically desirable to deliver a 'just works' desktop or server a) without using abstraction upon abstraction and b) using core components with well defined interfaces that c) will work with other core components of differing versions thus giving distributions freedom to mix and match.

It will probably take a couple of decades for the message to sink in. C'est La Vie.
Last edited by keithpeter on 2014-11-17 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-17 09:44

thanatos_incarnate wrote:....I will just quickly give my impressions
of a newly installed Debian Jessie system with systemd, slim login manager, openbox and a few programmes and scripts.

Same general idea, I use IceWM and don't have Slim, I just use startx and set sudo up so shutdown, pm-suspend and pm-hibernate can be run by user. Similar observations to yourself. I *think* it is agnostic as to init system.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 09:57

keithpeter wrote:2) I *think* it may be possible and technically desirable to deliver a 'just works' desktop or server a) without using abstraction upon abstraction and b) using core components with well defined interfaces that c) will work with other core components of differing versions thus giving distributions freedom to mix and match.


Forgive me, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, but Isn't that the systemd approach?
A unification of things like all those daemons (hal, etc.) into the init system and sending those
calls directly to the kernel which has already evolved into being able to cover all those needs?
And it's also relatively modular, i.e. components can be enabled/disabled at compilation.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-17 11:02

thanatos_incarnate wrote:A unification of things like all those daemons (hal, etc.) into the init system and sending those
calls directly to the kernel which has already evolved into being able to cover all those needs?

Philospohical question: If that was the intent of systemd, wouldn't it be frutile 'cause the kernel already provides this functionality?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 11:42

twoflowers wrote:
thanatos_incarnate wrote:A unification of things like all those daemons (hal, etc.) into the init system and sending those
calls directly to the kernel which has already evolved into being able to cover all those needs?

Philospohical question: If that was the intent of systemd, wouldn't it be frutile 'cause the kernel already provides this functionality?

Can't answer that due to lack of technical knowledge, so I don't think we can resolve that with a purely philosophical argument.

The intent of systemd, to quote its authors, is to provide basic building blocks for an OS. Now, as far as I understood it, systemd provides that, but uses certain kernel features as tools (so maybe my statement that the kernel covers all needs was a wrong choice.)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-17 11:48

thanatos_incarnate wrote:So, I've been keeping away from this discussion since it has started, but I will just quickly give my impressions
of a newly installed Debian Jessie system with systemd, slim login manager, openbox and a few programmes and scripts.
This is a notebook used as an all-around-desktop machine.
I usually choose stability over fresh packages, meaning that I'd have removed this system if it had even the smallest annoying bugs.

* Things work as they did before (settings, personal bash scripts, etc.)
* I can still do all the command line doohicky as someone here named it
* The programmes aren't faster or slower as on Wheezy, but I appreciate the new versions
* The system boots/shuts down/sleeps/resumes much faster than before
* Fewer bugs than a similar custom set up on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS (!)
* I had to adjust a few scripts that have to do with shutdown/restart/suspend/hibernate
* It's still all open source and DFSG

Did anyone say anywhere that anything of that would be the problem, or that anything of that would not be the case?
Didn't others already post the very same thing for several times?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 11:53

fruitofloom wrote:Did anyone say anywhere that anything of that would be the problem, or that anything of that would not be the case?
Didn't others already post the very same thing for several times?

Nope. Yet somehow I can't see what the problem is. All I hear is an alleged takeover of Red Hat that is based on conjecture,
the presumed downfall of the entire Linux ecosystem just because systemd is going against a few UNIX principles and POSIX
compatibility (which from my perspective was never that big between between distros and other *NICES) and a lot of arguments
that start with insults, threats and the like.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-17 11:56

I already listed the problems several times.
So did others on this board.
So does the WWW.

If you can't figure out the problem, that is really your problem.

I could just as well repeat that sysv is running fine here, all the time. And of course it does. But that is neither the problem nor the question.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 12:05

The only sound argument I got from it is the technical one:

"I don't like the way systemd works because of foo, foo bar,... foo*n+1"

Then there are the usual arguments against bugs, but all relatively new software has bugs
and the buggy state is not yet stable in Debian terms.

All other arguments I've seen so far seem either illogical or are based on some conjecture about
a future where systemd has become a monolithic and "de facto proprietary" (for lack of a better word),
or let's say commercial piece of software which prevents open source software freedoms and
free software values to live on.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-17 14:46

thanatos_incarnate wrote:Can't answer that due to lack of technical knowledge, so I don't think we can resolve that with a purely philosophical argument.


thanatos_incarnate wrote:The only sound argument I got from it is the technical one:
"I don't like the way systemd works because of foo, foo bar,... foo*n+1"


This might sound rude but I think you missed the point, despite you stateted it yourself: maybe you do not understand the reasons against systemd due to a lack of technical knowledge.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2014-11-17 14:59

But feel free to keep me in the dark, that way I will surely be convinced of your way. :lol:
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