What should we do about systemd?

[fleabus]

I'm just gonna go retro Debian, stick with Wheezy or Wheezy-based, that's good for a couple more years.
Plenty of time to learn Slackware and just, in general, to wait and see. A lot can happen in the next two or three years.
I'm hopeful there will still be Linux solutions. Maybe even Debian ones.

[Linadian]

I'm just gonna go retro Debian, stick with Wheezy or Wheezy-based, that's good for a couple more years.
Plenty of time to learn Slackware and just, in general, to wait and see. A lot can happen in the next two or three years.
I'm hopeful there will still be Linux solutions. Maybe even Debian ones.

I'm starting to agree, installed Mint 17 Xfce on my old machine, the only positive thing is it has DVDStyler, other than that, I can feel the virusd bugs, it's heavily infested, gkrellm seems 'jailed' like on a BSD system, the only sensor values accessible to tweak (offsets) are the HDD temps, everything else is locked, this isn't a huge issue but even on my new machine in Wheezy, grkrellm works perfectly and all values are accessible. Even simple things in Mint like adding icons or wallpaper to the appropriate directories is a chore now, it feels like excessive permissions lock-down.

Edit: I transcoded the same video file with Bombono (available in dmo) on my new machine in Wheezy, it did a better job than DVDStyler in Mint 17 (with virusd) on my old machine (hardware is of no consequence here, they are both very capable machines), I may wipe the fresh install of Mint off my old machine and install Wheezy on it too, I disabled the splash in Mint and 'un-hid' Grub (everybody is really Window-izing things these days, grrr), you should see the Poett-hat-ware virus scrolling by, 'strangling' everything, it's disgusting.

Edit 2: Judging by the way things are going/looking, I'll be forced back to KDE on PC-BSD, I know they offer Xfce, which I tried, it's OK but a little buggy, I've always found most distros' default DE is the best supported and implemented. It really burns my @$$ that I may have to give up my fakeraid on both my old and new machines, I hate being forced in to a corner, grrrrrr.

[n_hologram]

I'm just gonna go retro Debian, stick with Wheezy or Wheezy-based, that's good for a couple more years.
Plenty of time to learn Slackware...

This is basically my path, with a slight bias towards *BSD. On the topic of Slackware, assuming parasited roots itself deeply enough into the kernel, would it even make sense to switch to a Linux-based distro? (This has been a widely-discussed topic as of late, but I know very little about how slackware differs from, say, Debian.)

[oswaldkelso]

Defeat him
http://www.bloodbathsoftworks.com/xylemon/xlennart.php

[keithpeter]

I'm just gonna go retro Debian, stick with Wheezy or Wheezy-based, that's good for a couple more years.
Plenty of time to learn Slackware...

This is basically my path, with a slight bias towards *BSD. On the topic of Slackware, assuming parasited roots itself deeply enough into the kernel, would it even make sense to switch to a Linux-based distro? (This has been a widely-discussed topic as of late, but I know very little about how slackware differs from, say, Debian.)

Slackware 14.1 default install comes in at around 8Gb including KDE/XFCE and a few other thinner window managers. The large default install is one way round the lack of dependency resolution when using the 'provided' package managers. You compile 'slackbuilds' to add other programs, not difficult but can take a bit of time on older hardware. The slackers are a pragmatic bunch not given to drama. If it becomes impossible to provide a decent desktop without systemd, they will include it. But just enough of it to make KDE work

OpenBSD is an 'interesting' experience - similar to Linux but different in many details. I'm writing this on an OpenBSD 5.6 install on the test laptop with XFCE4 running with ConsoleKit, dbus, the hotplug daemon and 'toad', a little daemon that handles auto-mounting usb sticks and CDs. I'm puggling round the man pages trying to work out why the USB CD-ROM isn't auto-mounting. You get the picture.

[Linadian]

If it becomes impossible to provide a decent desktop without systemd, they will include it. But just enough of it to make KDE work

So where will that leave KDE loving PC-BSD?! So Poett-hat-ware will force the KDE folks to write KDE around virusd? The BSDs won't be happy if this ugly scenario plays out, unless KDE release two versions, virusd friendly and a non-virusd version. This is getting bloody ridiculous.

[twoflowers]

@keithpeter: as you are already testing OpenBSD you could also test FreeBSD. It's binary packages make life a lot more easy than OpenBSD. And if I understood correctly, there is KDE4 for FreeBSD.

[fleabus]

....would it even make sense to switch to a Linux-based distro? (This has been a widely-discussed topic as of late, but I know very little about how slackware differs from, say, Debian.)

You compile 'slackbuilds' to add other programs, not difficult but can take a bit of time on older hardware. The slackers are a pragmatic bunch not given to drama. If it becomes impossible to provide a decent desktop without systemd, they will include it. But just enough of it to make KDE work

+1 to keithpeter here... I haven't yet screwed up the courage to try the BSDs, although I'm giving them a hard look. For me, going with Slackware has to do with my hope that after all this shakes out in the next couple of years there'll still be Linux solutions. After starting out with Slackware I moved on to Salix, which has as its major advantage its placement as "Slackware for lazy Slackers" to which I would add lazy Debian refugees, amongst which you may count me... In addition to dependency resolution with slapt-get, gslapt, and sourcery, it now has a nifty little command "spi", short for Salix Package Installer.

http://guide.salixos.org/321SalixPackag ... html#4_2_1

It was written by the distro maintainer, George Vlahavas, and checks for both available binaries and available slackbuilds. For me, Salix has proved to be kind of addictive.

I also have hope that KDE might choose to remain somewhat above this stuff, since they supply builds for many different systems and architectures. I'm betting that keeping it going sans sysd won't be too much of a problem for the Slackers. I'll try to dig up links, I was reading some hopeful posts by KDE devs... I've been reading so much on this stuff lately that I haven't had time for much else.. I also have hopes that Xfce may find a way.

My hopes may prove to be irrational, but they'll do for the next couple of years. I'm in search, meanwhile, of a good used crystal ball, if anyone happens to stumble over one on their way to the latrine...

[fleabus]

[removed by::fleabus]

[keithpeter]

After starting out with Slackware I moved on to Salix, which has as its major advantage its placement as "Slackware for lazy Slackers" to which I would add lazy Debian refugees, amongst which you may count me... In addition to dependency resolution with slapt-get, gslapt, and sourcery, it now has a nifty little command "spi", short for Salix Package Installer.

Salix is lovely, and I went Salix -> Slackware on the 'typing box' (the old Dell E5420 laptop that just works when I need to produce *stuff*, thanks to oswaldkelso for mini review, I got a cheap sample off ebay for 15 brown ones).

If 2020 is your kind of horizon, have a look at Stella Linux 6. A 'remix' of CentOS 6 by NuX, you get a live hybrid iso that has all the codecs/flash/ms fonts installed and ready to go and support for many wifi cards (CentOS, Epel, ElReopo and NuX desktop repositories) along with Gnome 2.30. I keep a live version on a USB stick for emergencies.

[fleabus]

If 2020 is your kind of horizon, have a look at Stella Linux 6. A 'remix' of CentOS 6 by NuX, you get a live hybrid iso that has all the codecs/flash/ms fonts installed and ready to go and support for many wifi cards (CentOS, Epel, ElReopo and NuX desktop repositories) along with Gnome 2.30. I keep a live version on a USB stick for emergencies.

Thank you Keith, I didn't even know it existed. I've zero experience with rpm, besides some messing about with Mandrake 7 back in '00. I never got anywhere with it. This does look interesting, I'll have to get the live version and add it to the todo list....

[Linadian]

After starting out with Slackware I moved on to Salix, which has as its major advantage its placement as "Slackware for lazy Slackers" to which I would add lazy Debian refugees, amongst which you may count me... In addition to dependency resolution with slapt-get, gslapt, and sourcery, it now has a nifty little command "spi", short for Salix Package Installer.

Salix is lovely, and I went Salix -> Slackware on the 'typing box' (the old Dell E5420 laptop that just works when I need to produce *stuff*, thanks to oswaldkelso for mini review, I got a cheap sample off ebay for 15 brown ones).

If 2020 is your kind of horizon, have a look at Stella Linux 6. A 'remix' of CentOS 6 by NuX, you get a live hybrid iso that has all the codecs/flash/ms fonts installed and ready to go and support for many wifi cards (CentOS, Epel, ElReopo and NuX desktop repositories) along with Gnome 2.30. I keep a live version on a USB stick for emergencies.

Yes, I thank you too Keith, gunna check out Stella (DistroWatch's Stella 6 package list), looks and sounds interesting, I don't care if it's 'retro-ware' (Debian Wheezy is not exactly cutting edge either, lol), as long as it works and it's supported, and it's still virusd free...until at least 2020, I hope. At least now I have my old machine to test distros, I'm sniffing around FreeBSD too, I didn't know they had binaries, PC-BSD without all the branding.

Just a heads up for those going to download Stella, I hope you have some patience, the London (England) server to Canada was about 400KB/s download speed on average. Poke around the download server for 6.6, the DistroWatch Stella page says 6.5, that's old info.

Edit: Test live run of Stella 6.6 on my old machine (Q9550, 8GB DDR2, 4 HDD ICH10R Raid 0, Nvidia, etc), check out the pic, see for yourself (fakeraid was auto detected, that means an install to it), a clean well rounded distro, tons of functionality and settings, very stable. I regret poo-pooing old Gnome 2.x in the past, it acutally feels like Xfce on steroids, you have to get used to where things are but that's no big deal.
Click on the pic after it loads to go full size...

[keithpeter]

Just a heads up for those going to download Stella, I hope you have some patience, the London (England) server to Canada was about 400KB/s download speed on average.

Some of us dream of speeds like that

http://gnewsense.org/

Fully free deblobbed kernel, no proprietary drivers for wifi or nvidia &c. The 'Parkes' release is based on Debian Squeeze so familiar territory for most of us. Sam Geeraerts pops out updates, but applications *not* backported (Iceweasel 3.5, OpenOffice 3.x &c). The forthcoming Ucclia release will be Wheezy based.

[yzT]

I really don't understand what's the problem.

If all major distros, Debian included, are either using or planning to use systemd, it can't be as bad as you say.

IMO, this is becoming just another pointless discussion like the "Gnome 3 sucks".

[keithpeter]

I really don't understand what's the problem.

Well, the poll shows that yours is the majority opinion! Based on the Sid installation on my test laptop, Jessie's Gnome desktop will be a lot of fun. Enjoy.

If all major distros, Debian included, are either using or planning to use systemd, it can't be as bad as you say.

Try changing the sentence above to

If all major [companies], [my company] included, are either using or planning to use [Windows], it can't be as bad as you say.

and see how it feels

Seriously: we'll find out in a year or five. I'm sure Red Hat will *make* it work (same way that Microsoft have been *making* Windows work year after year with layer upon layer of code).

[Hallvor]

I really don't understand what's the problem.

You don't understand the problem with people restricting other people's freedom of choice, and then calls them a**holes if they object?

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Ne ... bout-Rants

If all major distros, Debian included, are either using or planning to use systemd, it can't be as bad as you say.

This is nothing more than appeal to popularity

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/releva ... opularity/

[fruitofloom]

I really don't understand what's the problem.

In that case stay silent.

The rest you posted was already commented. Not sure if it is worth a comment at all. If someone doesn't realize that he can ignore gnome, or even the GUI altogether, in case he doesn't like it, then further discussion doesn't seem to offer any gain. Hence my advice: Stay silent.

[Linadian]

I really don't understand what's the problem.

Then you either don't understand FOSS or have no clue how to read or use a search engine.

Poettering is a PAID employee of Redhat, a corporation who's interest is to make money off of Linux, and it seems, control the rest of Linux world with their code. Poettering has tried to bully, guilt or shame Linus Torvalds in to injecting buggy code in to the Linux kernel to make virusd work and 'standardize' virusd. That's not the way the Linux world works, you get the vanilla kernel, you build around it, if you can't, that's YOUR problem. If Redhat and Poettering want a proprietary kernel, then let them build their own, not FORCE it on to the rest of us. Do some reading, get enlightened, there are aspects of virusd that don't sit well with a lot of people, like it wants to CONTROL almost everything on your system, the logs are opaque in binary form, it's not easily tweakable, etc, etc, etc. This is not in line with the GNU philosophy, if I want secretive blobs on my machine, I'd go back to Windows, this blob (virusd) also has the potentional to become an NSA backdoor spyware (it controls your networking, hmmm), this is not a tinfoil hat rant, corporations have been approached by the NSA and are cooperating with them. Get a clue or go back to Windows.

Edited for grammar and spelling.

[keithpeter]

Poettering is a PAID employee of Redhat, a corporation who's interest is to make money off of Linux...

I'm all for people getting paid, and all for making money of both Linux and GNU and other GPLed code. More power to them, for they are implementing Richard Stallman's vision and refuting Bill Gates and (more recently) Jaron Lanier's position. And, as edbarx always likes to point out, we have the source code

[...]and it seems, control the rest of Linux world with their code.

Nope, I genuinely think Lennart is just trying to deliver stuff that works for Red Hat and others. I suspect that it is the lack of other companies contributing that has lead to the huge tidal field that the systemd group are exerting.

If Redhat and Poettering want a proprietary kernel, then let them build their own, not FORCE it on to the rest of us.

We might not like systemd and the wider system (e.g. kdbus) but it is *not* proprietary. Lennart and his chums are 100% transparent and posting their code, unlike, say, nvidia. Their code is all GPLed. Can we try to keep the technical structure argument separate from the licence argument please? Otherwise the systemd people can claim FUD. See my earlier posts about how the the narrative is being constructed.

[fruitofloom]

On a side note:
"but it is open source"
is getting old.
It has become clear, long before systemd, that being open-source isn't enough (Ubuntu-Amazon, anyone? As one example).
Others have explained that in better words than i ever could.

Not sure why you call L. Poettering Lennart. Do you know him personally?

People tell FUD all the time anyway, no matter what the opponents say (not that i would be too happy with most comments about systemd, but that fear, we won't be taken serious, is not necessary. We are not taken serious, this way or the other. Example: I can't see how being a company is a bad thing per se --- One in NSA-land is another thing, of course ).